From another board re: The South

[minionofmidas]

By the way, about our cities having "problems"....Where is the highest crime in our country? Atlanta, New Orleans, Houston, Dallas...all Southern cities.

Didn't we discuss this already? We pretty much boiled it down to a higher heat climate and minority demographics.

and segregation

Sadly that practice, even though not law, still exists in many rich New England communities.

Not really, but what you speak of is still VERY prevalent across much of the South. Don't deny it, I've seen it for myself.

Did you ever visit North Philadelphia?

Jonathan Frantzen wrote something similar somewhere...I'll try and think of quoting it when I find the time.

Just some more random thoughts on what I read in this thread...by no means exhaustive...
Segregation continues to exist, North and South. Just look at the Atlanta area's residential patterns. Or the Detroit area's.
And no, it's nowehere as bad as it used to be, again North and South.
But States' post should show you one thing: white Southern hatred of the North still exists.
I notice it totally escaped Dazzle that Dan claimed nowhere that these people he was talking about were White.

[minionofmidas]

His comments about racism in the same thread make me assume he was talking about people of both races, and is probably somewhat fed up with the fact that, in America, you have to expressly say this.

[minionofmidas]

His many Northern moves are a feature that needs explaining.
He was born in Georgia, and spent, apparently, his entire school career there.

[minionofmidas]

heck I even have black people in my classes.

There's a little telltale word here...

[minionofmidas]

heck I even have black people in my classes.

There's a little telltale word here...

And what would that little word be?

Well, one might claim there's actually two, but I was referring to "even", not "heck".

[minionofmidas]

I will say it again: Segregation is a lot worse in the North.  Dazzleman; a very good and intelligent poster, noted how he could go without having to go into a black neighborhood his whole life.

Might've something to do with lower overall Black populations, though...especially with MUCH lower rural Black populations - which, in turn, derive from - ah, but you know that.
By which, of course, I am not saying the North doesn't have a residential segregation problem. Quite the opposite.

[minionofmidas]

How much do those guys pay you?

[minionofmidas]

I will say it again: Segregation is a lot worse in the North.  Dazzleman; a very good and intelligent poster, noted how he could go without having to go into a black neighborhood his whole life.

Might've something to do with lower overall Black populations, though...especially with MUCH lower rural Black populations - which, in turn, derive from - ah, but you know that.
By which, of course, I am not saying the North doesn't have a residential segregation problem. Quite the opposite.

If enough black people move into a community, the white people move out.

Yes...but don't think that is any different in Southern cities. They have the overt racism to boot, not instead.

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Yeah, Socialist stupidity...Giving flats in Housing Projects only to those who need subsidized housing is all very fine, but forcing people to move out as soon as they don't need it any more is hurtful - it's destabilizing the neighborhood. We've had experiments with that in Frankfurt as well - not evicting those who earn too much, but raising their rent to the point where they could find something in a nicer neighborhood for the same price or less. It should be a planning aim to have rich people live right next to poor people. 

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How so.

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Yes, but don't think this is any different in the Southern cities. They have the overt - but I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

[minionofmidas]

Well I lived in Far Rockaway. All black.  My family moved because the neighborhood was getting too rough and robberies were rampant.  I actually grew up in Long Beach, NY.  A good party, drinking community on the Ocean.  The city is very segregated though.  I lived in the "west end" which was majority Irish with  Italians and Germans.  A christian area basically.  Going east along the ocean you have the Jewish area- Orthodox, reform and hasid who all hate each other:)  On the other side- the bay side you have the hispanic and black community.  We didn't go to the "black area" to hang out and they did not come to our part of town to party.  Then again we beat up a lot more "out of towners" than any race.  Most towns are segregated around these parts is my overall message. Al, look it up on fair data you can probably tell the different neighborhoods by socioecon.  11561.

Long Beach: Blacks heavily concentrated in a small area in the North Central part of the city. Hispanics centred on the same area, but spread out more throught the rest of the city. The Black/Hispanic area has higher poverty rates than the rest of the city and much lower Median HH Income.

Nassau county has a serious segregation problem: Map

Yes.
But then, America has a serious segregation problem.

[minionofmidas]

But then, America has a serious segregation problem.

I'm thinking of doing a list of the most segregated counties.

The Census Bureau has conducted a study by MetroAreas.
They say Milwaukee's worst for Blacks, Phoenix is worst for Native Americans, the Bay Area is worst for Asians, and I've forgotten where was worst for Hispanics. Might've been NYC, actually.

Yes, I noticed, no Southern places. Not that that means much. Given the mathematical model they used, you'd probably get much different results if you defined the MetroAreas somewhat differently.

[minionofmidas]

Those in the rich sections of Manhattan are pretty secure that blacks can't afford to move in, or those that can will be pretty respectable, so they get to assume the liberal pose of deep concern for the poor, while knowing that nobody poor will live anywhere near them.

Actually, given the standard American definitions of distance, they can be sure lots of poor people will live near them...I get your point though. 

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Like in the Jury System, you mean? Yeah, that kind of rule is going to guarantee racism can continue.

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Careful here...neighborhood instability  causes crime...Poor minority percentage alone doesn't.

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As long as you don't write "because"  

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It's called "crime and mayhem"...

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or Memphis, or CHicago, or...it's this very attitude that creates residential segregation.

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Didn't you just state the opposite? Or are you now talking about America in general, as opposed to just Manhattan and its suburbs?

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If that were true, there simply wouldn't be any rich inner-city neighborhoods left. Mind you, there are fewer of these in the US than anywhere else in the Northwestern World. 

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You can't force them, but you can certainly disencourage them from doing not to, and American seems to be doing the opposite.

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Integration, of course, is done by the majority group (the constant misuse of the term here in Germany is a real eyesore to me) and essentially means considering the minority's cultural differences as irrelevant. Jews have been integrated in the CHristian US in these last few decades, for example.

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Circulus Vitiosus thing, really. NEither can happen whithout the other.

[minionofmidas]

Lewis Trondheim -

Your response is the classic liberal response.  What is missing from this attitude is any recognition of WHY middle class whites move when their neighborhood starts turning black, other than blind racism, which is a gross oversimplification.

No, I wouldn't call it blind racism. Shortsighted is closer to the point...

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Not careful what you say - careful whether what you say is what you think. Your post was constantly veering right along a thin red line there...I hadn't read it to the end yet.

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Emphasizing the differences - or certain of the differences - , of course, is what the White racists do..."Liberals", and Blacks themselves saying, yeah, those are the differences, let's be proud of them, is, to a certain extent, playing the racists' game. Then again, no differences exist isn't exactly a winner either. There are differences, there are (much larger, looking at the whole picture) similarities, and I for one am just fine with that.

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No. No, since it didn't always exist in America, it can't be that deeply ingrained. No, we don't have it here, we're just not quite as bad. And no, it's not impossible. There's serious economic benefits involved in the American form of class segregation, and these are (partly) policy-shaped. That's where you should start. Cheapness of land, for example, is one you can't change. That gigantic continent behind you simply is there. Cheapness of fuel is one you can change. Government-sponsored road construction is one you can change. Having towns in charge of funding their schools - thus providing an additional incentive for young middle-class families to move out of inner cities to where schools are better funded - is one you can change.
Obviously, it would be hard even if the political will to do so existed. Obviously, it does not exist. Not in the Republican Party, not in the more influential parts of the Democratic Party.

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No. That's assimilation. A population group is integrated when nobody has a problem with the fact they're there, not when they're not there anymore except in the genetical sense.

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Question is in how much these are actually cultural differences. 

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Please. Working class Whites. No Political Correctness here. Of course, you're only talking of a certain type of "Liberal", a vocal one, but very much a minority within American "Liberalism".

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Would it, though?

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Where would be the point? And how could they? Cultural gaps are only closed by learning from one another. 

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Yes...to a point...ALthough...there are lots of Black Middle Class areas (and some Hispanic Middle Class areas too, tho' that's less common) so apparently they're still segregated. Of course, middle-class Blacks have cultural differences both with working-class Blacks and with Whites.

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Whites still tend to get mugged by Whites, Blacks by Blacks.

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Sure. Freedom of Expression.

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I haven't. You are the one of us living in a posh suburb. I am the man living in a poor, 50% non-German, inner city neighborhood. And liking it. Of course, I grew up in one.

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Well, Conservative solutions have been used much longer in America, beginning with slavery, and they've certainly been much less successful.
And speaking of double-talk: So Whites are allowed to resort to vandalism, intimidation etc because I've blocked all their other options? That's strange...

[minionofmidas]

Some interesting points.

With respect to your comment on short-sightedness, it's easy to take the long view when you know you have the money to move if things go sour.

True. (well, personally I don't have it, but...)

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 Absolutely true.

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Yeah, that was something of a cheap shot. (Although, having people above and below, is conservative, in the conservative sense of the word...)

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Yes.

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Another cheap shot, but a good one. Point taken.

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So the trickle-down theory of economic growth is liberal, while local empowerment is conservative? My, things have changed...

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Yeah, it's not an altogether bad idea...I think the American "Liberal" resistance to the idea is due to the fear that church-run schools are sponsored through the backdoor...my own gripe with it is that, speaking from past experience on this planet, it'd be much better to try and get everybody back into the state school system then to get as many people out of it as possible. But, of course, you're right - there's no political will to do anything like that, Democrats or Republicans.

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You are right...money alone is not going to do much. I got carried away there. "parents who instill an interest in education" are indeed very important - although one aim of a school system must be to reduce its importance - the problem being, next: How to get such parents? If education hasn't helped people in their own life, they'll find it hard to instill an interest in it in their kids even when they try. I'm not saying I have the solutiion, btw.

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I guess you meant "those liberals who have exempted...". A highrise apartment block with security at the door is basically a vertical gated community. Definitely not my cup of tea.

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Obviously. 

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And what percentage of crimes does this constitute?
Quite apart from questions like, who defines what a crime is, etc. And, of course, there's lots of crimes where there is no victim. What percentage of American prisoners have been victimized by the War on Drugs? And isn't their incarceration a crime?

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Good for you.  

(I left some good stuff out here, simply because I didn't have anything to add)

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Same as in Iceland, assuming your figure is correct.

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It is certainly hurtful in the economic sphere, partly due to the tax structure.
It needn't be in the educational sphere...although I can see how it is likely to be (a single parent is likely to have less time for her/his kids, after all).It may be more hurtful for boys than for girls, btw. This is what's happening in Jamaica, another country with low legitimacy (a stupid word, come to think of it) rates. Jamaican boys tend to drop out of school much earlier than their sisters, the assumption being that a man can always feed himself some way.