Legal immigrants from Mexico welcomed

[Simfan34]

After the great American brain drain of the 2010s, we're going to need significant immigration again.

Yes, yes, and yes. And let's work for those Southern Cone-rs. Or anyone else, for that matter.

[ag]

[quote author=redcommander link=topic=140263.msg3015374#msg3015374
What led to Buenos Aires developing that kind of reputation? Also the city has been a major center for immigration from Paraguay, Bolivia, Uruguay, and Chile in recent years, so isn't that sentiment changing somewhat?
[/quote]

Hey, I am really looking from afar. Mexico City is geographically closer to Madrid than to Buenos Aires. Any news about the change in that city's ethnic composition will, probably, travel up here - some time in the 2030s ))

As for, what gave BA such a repuation... Well, the general opinion is, porteños have always behaved as if they were the only white people around (at least when dealing w/ other Latin Americans).  And they can, indeed, be quite upfront about that - they are, generally, quite an upfront sort of people. It's enough that Mexicans are already quite insecure in their national pride (unlike Argentinians), so being told they are sh**t by fellow Latin Americans doesn't go down well (the rest of Lat Am tends to acknowledge Mexican cultural supremacy ) )

[Edu]

Is there animosity between Mexicans and Argentinians? I noticed that ag brought up the stereotype I've heard from some Mexican Americans I know that Argentinians are snooty, particularly people from Buenos Aires.

I don't really know about any real animosity apart from the usual competition where people get into fights claiming their country is better, something which as far as I know happens everywhere.

The stereotype about argies is pretty well known and obviously some people do get snooty (upper middle class and rich argies that went to live to Miami are particularly annoying which is another reason why I hate Miami ). But a stereotype is just that, a stereotype. The supposed overwhelming whiteness and European roots which in my opinion are exaggerations has made some people feel superior but I have traveled extensively all over the American continent (if I exclude the Caribbean I have visited every American country except Canada, El Salvador and Ecuador and while I went to the US once I mostly stayed just in Miami for a day or so) and I have found that white chileans, white Uruguayans and white Brazilians to just name a few had pretty much the same attitudes, some fit a stereotype but the vast majority does not and I think it's the same thing with Argentina.

But stereotypes work like that, you can meet hundreds of people that prove it wrong but the moment you see a guy who fits, you immediately remember the stereotype and say "well, then it is true" and that helps perpetuate it.

I usually tend to avoid Argentines when I'm on a trip because when I travel the last thing I want is to socialize with people that remind me of home (I think they are distracting when I'm trying to understand a different culture) so I don't exactly know how much arrogance or whatever they exude, but inside the country the view is very different.
People living here like to complain about everything and if you listened exclusively to the media you would think this is the worst country in the world. I have to tell friends every now and then that we are not Somalia, in fact we are better off that some other Latin American countries. People like to complain (to name one example) about the subway and how during rush hour you have to travel like you are in a can of sardines, well I've been to the London subway and the Paris subway and maybe I got particularly bad days but the amount of people was basically the same as here and I traveled like crap. Watching Tokyo subway videos isn't also very reassuring. Yes, our subway isn't very good especially because it's old and there is little ventilation in some stations, but rush hour is rush hour.
We probably have 2 ways of looking at things, either we are the best of the world when something goes well, or we are the worst when something goes bad, there is no middle ground. Maybe argie emigrants fall into the first category, but for sure people living inside the country fall into the second one.

The anti porteño sentiment that ag mentions is also not limited to foreigners. people outside the city and the metropolitan area in the province also think we are stuck up and believers that we are the center of the world just as porteños think that if it weren't for the national government giving them money the other provinces would completely collapse.
Of course (and now speaking as a porteño nationalist ) lots of people from the other provinces have to come at least once in their lifetimes to the city for one thing or the other while the amount of people in the city that have to travel to other provinces is quite negligible. Unless I'm doing it because I want to I don't think I ever had to step outside the city boundaries and hell I think I could even live a complete normal life even if I'm restricted to traveling to 3 or 4 neighbourhoods

During the last big economic crisis in Argentina the sheer amount of Schadenfreude I heard expressed by educated Latin Americans of all stripes was really staggering.

Yeah, I remember it well, not just from other Latin Americans but from European countries and the US. Some seemed happy we were having the crisis and other countries that treated us like we had turned into the Democratic republic of the Congo or something. I remember we spent the whole year of 2002 humiliating ourselves to the IMF to get a loan or something while they basically told us how much crap we were. Which explains in part why a lot of Argentines (especially those who approve of Cristina) smirk every time the economic crisis is Europe and the US or the Chilean student protests get on the news while we remain relatively stable.
As ag says, I think that the most adamant at criticising others and mentioning stereotypes are the mostly middle class/rich educated people and even then I don't think they are the majority. I frankly believe that rejoicing in other people's misfortunes is a pathetic sentiment whether someone else do it to us or we do it to others.

What led to Buenos Aires developing that kind of reputation? Also the city has been a major center for immigration from Paraguay, Bolivia, Uruguay, and Chile in recent years, so isn't that sentiment changing somewhat?

It probably dates back to the early 20th century when we were an extremely wealthy country with lots of European immigration. I just guess that part of the mentality of feeling superior to others that was rampant at the time just stuck in some people's minds despite the country going downward for most if not all of the 20th century.

Though for the record I do believe that political and social animosity between South American (or well, Latin American) countries is at a record low. Real political disputes are rare nowadays except a few exceptions like Venezuela and Colombia (though even there, I think the chances of a conflict are very slim). A war between Chile and Argentina has been a pretty important concern just a couple of decades ago, while now it's downright insane. The continent is much more stable than what it was years ago (even in the 90's). I don't really need to remind anyone I guess that Peru and Ecuador were at war just 16 years ago.
Petty bullcrap conflicts erupt every once in a while (like for instance the conflict between Uruguay and Argentina over the pulp mill on the Uruguay river) but aren't petty conflicts pretty common around the world?

As for, what gave BA such a repuation... Well, the general opinion is, porteños have always behaved as if they were the only white people around (at least when dealing w/ other Latin Americans).  And they can, indeed, be quite upfront about that - they are, generally, quite an upfront sort of people. It's enough that Mexicans are already quite insecure in their national pride (unlike Argentinians), so being told they are sh**t by fellow Latin Americans doesn't go down well (the rest of Lat Am tends to acknowledge Mexican cultural supremacy ) )

Some people do behave like that, but the reality is that the "hubris" we had, pretty much took a nosedive after the 2001 crisis, the feeling that we were an extension of Europe were a lot more common during the "economic bonanza" of the 90's. The stereotype continues though.
Wealthy, educated and white people in Latin America tend to consider themselves better than others much more so than people from other economic status and backgrounds. I also see that whenever a country is doing well economically their arrogance increases and maybe I'm going to stereotype a bit but some Chilean and Brazilian people I have met recently are starting to behave the way lots of people accuse argies of behaving. In a snooty, arrogant way thinking their countries are already part of the 1st world, something that was hilarious when we behaved like that and it's equally hilarious now.

I still think all of this is overblown and that stereotypes are exactly that, be it the arrogant Argentines, the lazy Mexicans, the ignorant Americans, the 24/7 Brazilian carnival dancers, etc.
Despite the flaws I like this continent more than any other and I'm happy to be living here

Sorry for the long post

[ag]

I would just add, that, if anything, I have found some Uruguayans to fit the porteño stereotype better then the porteños ) Then, again, it's just the other side of the river ))

[redcommander]

Thanks for the information ag and Edu. Sorry if I'm ignorant on the subject. I'm familiar with the typical jokes and stereotypes between Americans and Canadians, but most of it is usually in good fun, while I've noticed from the little bit I know about Latin American stereotypes, there's more negativity and seriousness with them. It's interesting that the Porteno stereotype has stuck for so long though, especially when like the two of you said there are equally European influenced and relatively wealthy countries (Uruguay, Chile, Brazil, and Costa Rica come to mind) that aren't known for europhilia and conceitedness that gets applied too often to Buenos Aires.

[ag]

I wouldn't say this is much more serious than US/Canada, but, of course, there is much less interaction between the countries involved. As for the porteño stereotype, it, actually, has too much truth in it to be dismissed )) Of course, most of us would view Montevideo simply as a suburb of BA, so Uruguayans are, generally, painted w/ the same brush (and, as I say, possibly w/ even more justice ) ). Chile is a bit of a special case, though. In any case, the combined population of both of these countries is, probably, equal to the number of people you can find on a single subway care in Buenos Aires, so who, really, cares.

As for the little Costa Rica,  it has its own stereotype (at least in Mexico): "they think they are Swiss". Actually, when I was there, people seemed to be genuinely embarassed by it - I guess, they are only supposed to be snooty towards Nicaraguans, not to Mexicans )

[ag]

Though, I should say, Costa Rica is, actually, quite exotic and non-European. Find a place in Europe where in the 21st century the street address would be "from the McDonalds in San Pedro 300 meters North and 75 meters West the pink house after the playground". Actually, I also expected the people to be a lot whiter, based on the "Swiss" reputation. San Jose is an interesting place, but a white European capital it is not.

[Edu]

Oh yeah, Uruguay, the 24th Argentine province

As for the porteño stereotype, it, actually, has too much truth in it to be dismissed ))

Mate, it's time for your nap


I guess Costa Rica gets stereotyped as Swiss because of Switzerland's neutrality (though I suppose Costa Rica is not that Neutral), it has been pretty peaceful for the past decades and because people probably think the European country doesn't have an army either

When I was in Costa Rica I remember them complaining about the Nicaraguans and calling them "Nicas" in a sort of despective tone

I went there in 2000 and yeah, it was fun to do stuff in the jungle like rafting, exploring, doing canopy tours and such. I remember it fondly.
But at the time (maybe it has improved recently) I was appalled by the lack of roads infrastructure. Finding a paved road anywhere in the country was like finding a needle in a haystack. Probably more common in the cities, but you get out of one and it could be years till you find one.
Plus the only road in good conditions I traveled in had space for just 2 cars at a time and it was a 2 way highway so if you got stuck behind a huge truck you were f**ked. I remember one day we had to do 80 km and we spent nearly 6 hours till we got to the destination.

[ag]

I didn't think Costaricans get stereotyped as Swiss ) They get stereotyped as those who think they are Swiss ) It's not the same thing ))

Well, I've only been to San Jose - no rafting for me ) The city does have (mostly, quite poor) roads - but no street names (these are on the maps, but nobody knows them).  However, the lack of roads outside of the city is fairly obvious from the fact, that I've never seen a foreign licence plate in the entire city (the local plates have 6 digits and no letters: what will they do if they get a millionth car?) And, of course, people have to fly to Panama if need arises: they say it's a 10-hour drive to the border, which, considering the distances, seems quite pathetic.

As for the Argentina thing: hey, I wasn't born Mexican, so I do not share that national imperative to avoid offense at all cost ) Once you take that feature into account, though, you will figure out how obnoxious you guys seem up here, without even trying ))))

Anyway, nothing personal )))

[Edu]

Anyway, nothing personal )))

And frankly I like this particular direction of the thread more than the one it was originally intended for

[phk]

Americans like rich immigrants. Actually it's sort of a world wide phenomenon. People don't like the other especially when they are poors.

Actually I don't think it is so much class that is the issue. A lot of people don't mind individual poor immigrants. Not many complaints about Hmongs uh?

The main issue of contention with Mexicans is with the case of concentrated waves that is transforming the demographics of a given area and not for the better on the economic data.

Places have depreciated from upper middle class, productive, low crime, relatively educated areas have into nothing more than ethnic ghettos. People can't recognize where they grew up just 15-25 years ago. It's almost as if a part of their history and themselves has been taken away.

[Sbane]

Americans like rich immigrants. Actually it's sort of a world wide phenomenon. People don't like the other especially when they are poors.

Places have depreciated from upper middle class, productive, low crime, relatively educated areas have into nothing more than ethnic ghettos. People can't recognize where they grew up just 15-25 years ago. It's almost as if a part of their history and themselves has been taken away.

Which areas are you talking about? San Gabriel Valley? San Fernando Valley? Not to mention areas that were spanking new in the 50's aren't going to look so nice now regardless of who lives in those houses.

BTW, has there been a spike in crime in LA county from say 30 years ago? Does anyone have crime data for counties? I would be pretty interested in LA county data. Mexicans might be poor, but they aren't as crime prone as some people would like to believe.

And are you including Asians in your dystopic vision? Are Arcadia, Walnut, Diamond Bar, Irvine, Garden Grove, Westminster etc. included on the list?

Or what about Fremont or Cupertino up in the bay? Horrible ghettos I imagine?

San Marino is a horrendous ghetto from what I hear.

[phk]

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No. Didn't I mention this:

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I'm actually talking about Fresno, but I guess similar to Eastern LA county, Southern SD County.

The demographic changes in Fresno for example show up more acutely in terms of public high school data. In Fresno there are schools with nearly 100+~ upper class houses/mansions (built in the 50s through 80s) in their area reporting 90% socioeconomically challenged rate of the students. 

Call me sentimental, but I do like older more mature neighborhoods maintained.

[Sbane]

Well my point in bringing up those Asian areas is that they are quite different from what they were 20-30 years ago as well. Ethnic ghettos if you will. And yet no one seems to have much of a problem with it. West Covina on the other hand.... It's the C word at work here.

[phk]

Well my point in bringing up those Asian areas is that they are quite different from what they were 20-30 years ago as well. Ethnic ghettos if you will. And yet no one seems to have much of a problem with it. West Covina on the other hand.... It's the C word at work here.

How would you know people don't have a problem with it

...wasn't there an NY Times article about White families feeling uneasy about the changes at Lynbrook and Monta Vista high schools in Silicon Valley?

I think we might be defining ethnic ghettos here differently. I mean something closer to the "hood" or "barrios". There are actual Asian ghettos in Fresno, but they have consist of asylum refugees. I think a few things are that: Asian neighborhoods are more well-kept, Asians engage in very little crime, Asians do not have an illegal problem, Asian demographic wave changes are a lot slower and not nearly as associated with "white flight", Asians do not compete for lower-ended jobs nearly as much.

[Sbane]

Haha just read city data forums bro. People aren't afraid to be racist there. I haven't seen anything about Asians. On the other hand every other topic about socal devolves into how la is a sh**thole and it's all the mexicans fault.

As for those hyper Asian schools in the bay area (and similar forces might be at play in the la area as well), they are extremely focused on academics to the detriment of everything else. Mission high school in Fremont had 50 valedictorians. 50 kids that didn't even get an A- in a single class. That's close to 15% of their class. Some people don't want to raise their kids in such an environment, and of course it's not as if moving is an issue since house prices are high and there is always demand. So they can move to Pleasanton or Livermore where sports are more important and save money doing it. Again the c word helps them out over people who want to move out of poorer Mexican areas, thus less hate.

[Sbane]

As for hmongs, even where they may have a big community, they don't make a significant part of larger metro area do they? What % of Fresno county is Hmong? Or other poor Asians? If 33% of silicon valley was poor Asian immigrants as opposed to mostly middle class to upper middle class, you would see more problems too. And that again goes back to my basic point, though I do acknowledge sheer numbers matter too. But maybe you should see it from the perspective of the San Gabriel valley or Silicon valley where there are a lot of Asians in addition to the perspective of Fresno.

[Хahar 🤔]

The article in question

It caused quite a stir when it was published. There's certainly a lot wrong with it.

[Sbane]

The article in question

It caused quite a stir when it was published. There's certainly a lot wrong with it.

There's some truth to it, but it's so damn sensationalistic. Goddamn media.

[phk]

As for hmongs, even where they may have a big community, they don't make a significant part of larger metro area do they? What % of Fresno county is Hmong? Or other poor Asians? If 33% of silicon valley was poor Asian immigrants as opposed to mostly middle class to upper middle class, you would see more problems too. And that again goes back to my basic point, though I do acknowledge sheer numbers matter too. But maybe you should see it from the perspective of the San Gabriel valley or Silicon valley where there are a lot of Asians in addition to the perspective of Fresno.

Hmongs are about 8% of the City of Fresno. Maybe 4% of Fresno County. The main Asian group. Next largest is the historic Japanese-American community that has been here as farmers since the late 1800s/early 1900s. Regardless this understates their population that people in school go through. Various high schools throughout Fresno had their Hmong populations at 41.4%, 29.3%, 24%, 15%, 14.2%, 14%, 9%. I like high school data because it's like a partial Census released every year. Hmongs are spread out everywhere yet also have their concentrations. They have high fertility rates (like 4 kids is a "small family"). As they arrived from the 1980s and into 1990, they had a median age of 12-13. For a sense of perspective, the median White Fresnan could be the median Hmong's parent even after graduating from college. Of course people do cut them more slack because they were pro-US fighters in the Vietnam War.

Anecdotally, Hmongs and more traditional Asian-Americans are mutually disengaged from one another. They see each other as different people. Neither side has gone out of their way to make overtures to each other. The Hmongs thus end up closer to the Mexicans and the traditional Asian-Americans closer to the Whites. It's like a peaceful version of the Somali-vs-African-American narrative that goes on in Minneapolis. 

Of course beyond Hmongs, the White population falling in Monta Vista High from 45% => 25% over a period of time (1995 to 2005?) when the area was half White is pretty significant. I suspect just as many White liberals here disliked "Tiger Moms" they would also be wary to send their kids to a school where as many as 40%~+ of kids had such moms. This leads me to suspect once issues of class, urban decay, etc. disappear due to higher economic standing that culture is the salient issue. Of course with Mexicans, culture is not that much of an issue. Spanish is closer than a tonal Asian language and Roman Catholics are some type of Christian.

Another important issue is that labor markets are in a precarious situation when high school educated workers and lower are in major trouble. I have mentioned before that there is a social utility to having lower unemployment rates and tighter markets for lower-ended workers. As supply of labor increases faster than it's demand than they see their future stability eroding. There is not really an issue of labor market competition with doctors/engineers et. al. Jfern mentions H1-B's but he's the only one who has had such concerns. 

[Sbane]

As for the Asian schools in the Bay Area, the extreme focus on academics does drive away some White parents. What does that say about them, do you think? In my opinion they are just doing what they think is best for their kid. And imho I think they are right. I am glad I went to school in Pleasanton and not in Mission San Jose High school in Fremont. Sure, property values have held up much better in Mission district than in Pleasanton, but that's a different matter altogether. Do you think these people are racists, phk? I think they are just looking out for their kid's interests, and it's not merely to have more whites around him or her.

[Boris]

The article in question

It caused quite a stir when it was published. There's certainly a lot wrong with it.

What are the black and hispanic kids at your school like?

[Хahar 🤔]

The article in question

It caused quite a stir when it was published. There's certainly a lot wrong with it.

What are the black and hispanic kids at your school like?

What black and hispanic kids?

[milhouse24]

There's an article in the WSJ about unmarried Black Women.  Therefore in theory, the Black children will decrease because there are less Black marriages.  But its more likely that unmarried Black Women are just unmarried Black Single Moms.  So either way, Black Children lose out. 

The author stated that Black Women should marry outside of their race, but many Black Women don't want to based on insecurities and Black Pride.  But Black Men don't care about marrying white women so its really just Black Women needing to change their paradigm.