Do you pronounce the "r" in these words?

[angus]

In Cleveland, there is even some pronunciation difference between the east and west sides of town. For example, east-siders will pronounce the "oo" in roof like the the "oo" in foot, but west-siders pronounce it like the "oo" in aloof. The word Cuyahoga is also pronounced differently. East-siders will pronounce the "o" as a long o and west-siders will pronounce it with the "aw" sound like in "taught".

It's a little off-topic, since it has nothing to do with rhoticity, but now that you mention it, it's a bit like that here as well.  For example, since we have moved to Iowa, my son has started to pronounce the word room more or less as "rum."  Very upper Midwest twang, much as you describe East Clevelanders.  (I pronounce it as, well, imagine you speak English and had never seen it but came across a word spelled RUME.  'silent e'  That's how I say room.)  And he's also pronouncing taught as towt, like you say East Clevelanders do.  I guess the perceived prestige form in the upper midwest/great lakes must be like that, and the teachers have as great an influence over the speech patterns as the parents once they start Kindergarten. 

I don't mind that so much, to be honest.  It's when he comes home telling me a tomato is not a fruit that gets under my skin.  "Mrs. F says a tomato is a vegetable, not a fruit."  "What?!"  "yeah, you always call a tomato, a jalapeno, a banana, etc., fruits.  But apparently a tomato is not a fruit.  It's a vegetable."  I went up there last year and got into a big argument with them about that.  I posted about it here.  How you pronounce tomato really doesn't much matter to me, but by god it's the swollen ovary of an angiospermatic plant, and therefore it's a fruit, goddammit!  You can also call it a vegetable, if you like--after all, it's vegetation, like all plants, so, like all plants, it's a vegetable--but certainly it's a fruit. 

Oh, man, don't get me started on the public schools.

[ilikeverin]

Well you definitely know more than me about this subject so I won't quarrel. Most people outside California do speak about the same as Californians as far as I can discern.

Let's start with this: do you pronounce the words "cot" and "caught" differently?  "Don" and "Dawn"?  "The fawns" and "The Fonz"?  (I think you might.)  If so, then, no, you don't talk like a Californian

In Cleveland, there is even some pronunciation difference between the east and west sides of town. For example, east-siders will pronounce the "oo" in roof like the the "oo" in foot, but west-siders pronounce it like the "oo" in aloof. The word Cuyahoga is also pronounced differently. East-siders will pronounce the "o" as a long o and west-siders will pronounce it with the "aw" sound like in "taught".

It's a little off-topic, since it has nothing to do with rhoticity, but now that you mention it, it's a bit like that here as well.  For example, since we have moved to Iowa, my son has started to pronounce the word room more or less as "rum."  Very upper Midwest twang, much as you describe East Clevelanders.  (I pronounce it as, well, imagine you speak English and had never seen it but came across a word spelled RUME.  'silent e'  That's how I say room.)

Astute observation.  That's a very Northern Midwest thing.  I personally have [rʊf] for "roof" the noun and [rʊt] for "root" the noun but [ u] for everything else. (i.e., "roof" and "root" have the same vowel as "hoof" and "foot" when they're nouns but the rest have the standard; "roof" and "root" the verbs both are standard)  It's also one of the most salient aspects of the dialect.  If you were to ask Iowans or Minnesotans what makes us sound different from other places, we might mention that (though Minnesotans will happily tell you about their "o"s first and foremost).

  And he's also pronouncing taught as towt, like you say East Clevelanders do.

Hmm.  I'm not sure what to make of your transcription system, so I'm not sure I can comment on that.  Where were you raised?  If California, then you're probably noticing that he differentiates "cot"-"caught" and you don't.  But I think Iowa is merging, so it could be just the opposite, that he's merged "cot"-"caught" while you haven't...

I pose the same questions to you that I posed to sbane.  And I ask them of Louis, too

  I guess the perceived prestige form in the upper midwest/great lakes must be like that,

Nope.  That's the same basically everywhere in the US.

and the teachers have as great an influence over the speech patterns as the parents once they start Kindergarten. 

NOOOOO nononononono no no no no.  He's picking it up from his peers.  He could care less what his teachers sound like, and he's started ignoring you ever since he got into school

[Torie]

I'm a Californian, and I pronounce all the words the same except for The fawns" and "The Fonz." The vowel on that one is very slightly different, and Fonz has a hard z sound, and for fawns it is barely there at all. They overall sound is quite different in fact, and I think I am standard issue on this one.

[angus]

He could care less what his teachers sound like, and he's started ignoring you ever since he got into school

haha.  Fair enough.  

Let's see.  I guess I would say "the fawns" differently than "the Fonz."  In my head one is English, and the other is the first syllable of an Italian word.  (Yes, I speak and read Italian well enough to pronounce Fonzarelli, and I'm aware that the first syllable, fonz, isn't exactly rendered the same way in Milwaukee as it would be in Perugia, but I also don't think it sounds the same as fawns.)

Caught is pronounced with a silent "gh"  So it sort of rhymes with bought.  In fact, I think that bought and caught are exactly the same in my normal pronounciation except the first consonant.  But cot is shorter.  Cot.  Yes, now that I say it aloud, it's definitely sorter.  Much shorter.  

But taught is different than ...  OH, hell, I can't remember what we were talking about.  But I am aware that taught is pronounced differently in different places.  I remember when I was living in Manhattan how it was pronounced by blue-collar locals.  And I remember how it was pronounced by locals when I lived in Columbus, Mississippi.  And the way it get pronounced by folks here in northeastern Iowa is different still than either of those two.  I'm not sure how to transliterate it for you, but it's definitely not like Manhattan and it's definitely not like Columbus.  And now I can't even remember the point of mentioning that word.

But I do remember the point of the word room.  And the way my son says it is different than the way I say it, and we live in a very white-collar neighborhood, and in fact we bought this house, in part, because the public elementary school here had the highest composite reading and math scores of the seven public elementary schools in the city, so whether it's coming from his teachers or his mates I can assume that it must be the prestige form locally.  

[Senator Sbane]

Well you definitely know more than me about this subject so I won't quarrel. Most people outside California do speak about the same as Californians as far as I can discern.

Let's start with this: do you pronounce the words "cot" and "caught" differently?  "Don" and "Dawn"?  "The fawns" and "The Fonz"?  (I think you might.)  If so, then, no, you don't talk like a Californian

I think I pronounce them about the same. Maybe just the slightest of differences...hmm. Haha, not very good at this subject.

[dead0man]

Of course I say the "r" sound.

My stepdaughter didn't when she was three though.  She sounded just like everybody from Boston ever. 
"daddy, can you dwive me to da pahk or do I halfta wolk?"
"I'll drive, but only if you tell me to park the car on the Harvard yard"
"pahk da cah on the havad yad"

So, to me, people from the Northeast sound like three year olds with a speech problem.

[Ethelberth]

In Finnish we have very rolling r-sounds. When I speak English I would use long vowels like in words fa:mö or ha:d or pa:k.

[Insula Dei]

Wait, so you don't have to pronounce the 'r' in English,? You could always get away with just implying an 'h' or something? I ask because I absolutely can't pronounce the 'r' in a half-way decent fashion when I'm speaking English. Either I overdo it (and pronounce it like I would in Dutch) or I underdo it and it winds up almost a 'w'. You guys should get rid of it or man up and pronounce it like a propper letter, really.

(And yeah, I don't do the whole phonetical signs thing, hope that the way I wrote it down my problem is clear enough.)

[afleitch]

     I pronounce them unless I'm mimicking characters on Doctor Who, which I suppose goes with your assumption about anglophones.

If you're ever mimicking Amy Pond you will know she most definitely pronouncs her 'r's like a good Scotswoman.

"Docturrr'

[ZuWo]

Maybe I should have formulated the question in a slightly different way and simply asked "are you a speaker of a rhotic or non-rhotic English dialect?". I wasn't sure how familiar non-linguists are with the term "rhoticity" and the IPA so I decided to use "r" instead.

When I speak English I almost always pronounce the "r" in words like "farm", "hard" etc - very much like most Americans. But when I converse with someone from England who has a non-rhotic accent it often happens that I adapt my speech and say "faam" or "haad" instead of "farm" and "hard".

[angus]

Maybe I should have formulated the question in a slightly different way and simply asked "are you a speaker of a rhotic or non-rhotic English dialect?". I wasn't sure how familiar non-linguists are with the term "rhoticity" and the IPA so I decided to use "r" instead.

When I speak English I almost always pronounce the "r" in words like "farm", "hard" etc - very much like most Americans. But when I converse with someone from England who has a non-rhotic accent it often happens that I adapt my speech and say "faam" or "haad" instead of "farm" and "hard".

How does that work in German?  Years ago, when I lived in Germany, and during the year before lived in Germany studying with a private tutor, I was taught that it was always non-rhotic.  Mutter, Vater, Bruder, Schwester, all of them non-rhotic.  So when I come across a German name in English-language books (which, as you might imagine, is quite often when I'm teaching quantum mechanics or statistical thermodynamics), I always do that.  Erwin Schrödinger, Friedrich Wöhler, Werner Heisenberg, etc., all non-rhotic.  I do this whether I am referring to a German, an Austrian, a Swiss, a Leichtensteiner, or even a Letzeburger (when that arises).  Is that correct?

I ask only because I have a mix CD with some German and Flemish political music that I made when I was working in Amsterdam (Their language is also non-rhotic, but it's creepier-sounding to me.  Like German on steroids.)  Anyway, on several of the German songs (e.g., "Die Herren Generale" by Ernst Busch), the -er endings are very rhotic.  Granted, that particular song has lots of Spanish phrases in it, and it's weirder still as it's Spanish sung in a German accent, and weirdest of all because I was in the fog of an Amsterdam coffeehouse smoke when I first heard it.  I was all like, '...whoa, that dude is going back and forth between singing German and singing Spanish in a German accent.  Dude, I gotta buy that CD...'  But all that aside, the singer is exaggerating the rrrr sounds at the end of the word.  Is this a common technique in German singing? 

(Maybe it's like the way americans and british rock singers sing words.  Think of Mick Jagger "I'm not waitin' on a lady..." or Aerosmith singing "Walk this way."  I'd always assumed that was because the inventor of Rock and Roll, Elvis Presley, had that long twangy accent, so that's just how Rock music always got sung.  If the first person ever to shake his pelvis had been from Brooklyn, then the Rock accent would have been that way.  Ha.  Imagine Mick Jagger singing "Walk this way..." in Brooklynese.) 

[angus]

Here's the particular lyric in question:

Die Herren Generale, die Herren Generale,
Die Herren Generale, mammita mia,
Hab'n uns verraten!

Wer hat denn diese Herren, wer hat denn diese Herren,
Wer hat denn diese Herren, mamita mia,
So schlecht beraten?

Madrid, dich wunderbare, Madrid, dich wunderbare,
Madrid, dich wunderbare, mammita mia,
Dich wollten sie nehmen!

Doch deiner treuen Söhne, doch deiner treuen Söhne,
Doch deiner treuen Söhne, mammita mia,
Brauchst dich nicht schämen!

Und alle deine Tränen, und alle deine Träne,
Und alle deine Tränen, mammita mia,
Die werden wir rächen!

Und alle unsre Knechtschaft, und alle unsre Knechtschaft,
Und alle unsre Knechtschaft, mammita mia,
Die werden wir brechen!

Marchaos Legionarios! Marchaos Hitlerianos!
Marchaos Invasores! Mamita mia!
A vuestra tierra!

Porque el proletariado, porque el proletariado,
Porque el proletariado, mamita mia!
Ganó la guerra!


He does a long roll (in a grating, nervous, Teutonic fashion, and not like a gentle "sierra" as in Spanish) at the ends of syllables in words such as wir, wer, werden, and of course in some of the Spanish words.

Great song, by the way.  You like History.  Can you figure out who he's talking about? 

[BushKenya]

Yes, I do.  Most people in Oklahoma even put "r" where it doesn't belong such as in Washington.  I try to pronounce it correctly, but most Okies pronounce it Warshington.  It annoys the crap out of me.

[angus]

Worshing machine. 

I don't hear that much in Iowa, but in Boston it's common.  Donna becomes Donner.  I guess they save up all those Rs that they forget to use in Worcestershire and sister and they pop up in crazy places. 

That Nomaah Gahciaparrarrr has really got his stuff tonight!  Yeah, dis is da yeeeah for da Red sowx. 

[muon2]

Yes, unless I'm singing. Most choir directors request that sound be dropped.

[ZuWo]

angus, I probably cannot answer your question regarding the German pronunciation of "r" in its entirety. But I'l give it a try. In standard German, the "r" is not pronounced before consonants or in word-final position, such as in "härter" or "Vater". In these cases, the "r" is vocalized in standard German.

After consonants, however, one should pronounce the "r". So in a name like Schrödinger you must pronounce the first "r" but you can leave out the final one in the ending "-er". However, it depends on the linguistic background of the speaker. Most Swiss German speakers (like me) would make the "r" sound in a name like Schrödinger when speaking Standard German. I'm not sure what the situation looks like with Austrian or Liechtenstein speakers, though. I guess it depends on the particular dialect there.

As for the lyric you quoted: There is no need for the singers to roll the "r" to such an extent. In "Herren", for example, you don't even have to say the "r" at all but you could vocalize it. In "verraten", however, a German speaker pronounces the sound. I guess the rolling of the "r" was just done to emphasize the particular words and to create a particular feeling about the song. I leave that to experts.

[angus]

Could be local dialects.  I know that Schweizdeutsch has a very different sound than that spoken in Niedersachsen, where I lived for some time.  I guess that Austria is different as well.  I have a colleague that lived for several years in Switzerland and the way he learned to say some words (and even the actual phrasing and language) is rare.

Like "Is this the queue for the loo?" versus "Is this the line for the men's room?" in English.


Anyway, here are three versions of that song, and the singers all seem to have different dialects:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4vm1VEIReU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AizmADKpkso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWiyRQ9VgRs

[Ethelberth]

In German, you can have a alveo-dental trill, uvular trill, diphtong or drop it totally. I have allways thaught that alveoral trill belongs to Bühnendeutsch.

[Free Palestine]

Alveolar approximant for all of them, I think.

[Jayhawker]

Honestly, I rarely pronounce the R sound in any word. I've always had a problem saying "r", and for a while I'd just try to say it and sound ridiculous, but now I mostly just drop it. Anytime I'm writing a speech I always try to put as few "r"'s in it as possible. A nuisance, let me tell you.

[Fmr. Emperor PiT]

Well you definitely know more than me about this subject so I won't quarrel. Most people outside California do speak about the same as Californians as far as I can discern.

Let's start with this: do you pronounce the words "cot" and "caught" differently?  "Don" and "Dawn"?  "The fawns" and "The Fonz"?  (I think you might.)  If so, then, no, you don't talk like a Californian

     I've lived in California my entire life & I have never heard anyone pronounce those the same. "Cot", "Don", & "Fonz" have a vowel sound like the "a" in "father". "Caught", "dawn", & "fawns" sound like the "aw" in "paw".

[Mr. Morden]

Yes, I do.

Though I grew up in Milwaukee, so I don't pronounce the "l" in Milwaukee.

[patrick1]

Accents fascinate me.  I was going to make a thread about "post a close approximation of your accent video".   This is a good video for New York accents.  Jon Stewart lays it on thick here.  I speak like Burns I would say- Note the words dawg, bedda, painta, simila.  I also say dese, dems and dose in a non business setting.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-november-26-2001/ed-burns

[ilikeverin]

Well you definitely know more than me about this subject so I won't quarrel. Most people outside California do speak about the same as Californians as far as I can discern.

Let's start with this: do you pronounce the words "cot" and "caught" differently?  "Don" and "Dawn"?  "The fawns" and "The Fonz"?  (I think you might.)  If so, then, no, you don't talk like a Californian

     I've lived in California my entire life & I have never heard anyone pronounce those the same. "Cot", "Don", & "Fonz" have a vowel sound like the "a" in "father". "Caught", "dawn", & "fawns" sound like the "aw" in "paw".

Ah!  I was wondering why.  Then I saw you were from San Francisco.  Yes, you might.  Angelenos would consider you saying such a thing bizarre.

[Senator Sbane]

There's differences in accents between Northern and Southern California? Never picked up on that....of course words are a different thing. We hella say hella in norcal.