Israel general discussion

[dead0man]

Yeah, but their tunnels are even better this time.  Meanwhile, 37,000 tons of concrete sits in a warehouse, about to expire.  Like 95% of Gaza's problems, Hamas is the root, but like 95% of Gaza's problems, useful idiots in the west will blame Israel.

[politicus]

Yeah, but their tunnels are even better this time.  Meanwhile, 37,000 tons of concrete sits in a warehouse, about to expire.  Like 95% of Gaza's problems, Hamas is the root, but like 95% of Gaza's problems, useful idiots in the west will blame Israel.

No matter who is to blame a total collapse of Gaza will have serious consequences. People will have to go somewhere - either Egypt, Israel or - if blocked by their neighbours - they will try to reach Europe. So this is another refugee time bomb waiting to happen.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Amongst everything else it is a rare contemporary example of actual overpopulation.

[DavidB.]

In this case, I think Europe loves them so much, they should have them all - just to see how sweet these people are. If you love someone you don't let them go, right? Ireland, Sweden, Belgium, Norway, and the UK should take the most. Would be a perfect solution.

On a more serious note, yes, I agree with Sibboleth that overpopulation in Gaza is a real thing and something should be done about it. Not sure if I buy the conclusions of the UN report though: given that this is the UN, it might also be just another political ploy to force Israel to stop the blockade.

[Hnv1]

Yeah, but their tunnels are even better this time.  Meanwhile, 37,000 tons of concrete sits in a warehouse, about to expire.  Like 95% of Gaza's problems, Hamas is the root, but like 95% of Gaza's problems, useful idiots in the west will blame Israel.

No matter who is to blame a total collapse of Gaza will have serious consequences. People will have to go somewhere - either Egypt, Israel or - if blocked by their neighbours - they will try to reach Europe. So this is another refugee time bomb waiting to happen.

They'll be swarming the Israeli fence, a true leadership would have understood the necessity in Gaza's redevelopment and allowed for a port to be formed. And lets not forget Sisi's proposal to give away some Egyptian swathes of territory to tackle this problem but current Israeli leadership is busy fighting Obama at congress

[politicus]

Yeah, but their tunnels are even better this time.  Meanwhile, 37,000 tons of concrete sits in a warehouse, about to expire.  Like 95% of Gaza's problems, Hamas is the root, but like 95% of Gaza's problems, useful idiots in the west will blame Israel.

No matter who is to blame a total collapse of Gaza will have serious consequences. People will have to go somewhere - either Egypt, Israel or - if blocked by their neighbours - they will try to reach Europe. So this is another refugee time bomb waiting to happen.

They'll be swarming the Israeli fence, a true leadership would have understood the necessity in Gaza's redevelopment and allowed for a port to be formed. And lets not forget Sisi's proposal to give away some Egyptian swathes of territory to tackle this problem but current Israeli leadership is busy fighting Obama at congress

It is rare for a leader to offer to cede territory voluntarily. How much was he willing to give away?

[Hnv1]

Yeah, but their tunnels are even better this time.  Meanwhile, 37,000 tons of concrete sits in a warehouse, about to expire.  Like 95% of Gaza's problems, Hamas is the root, but like 95% of Gaza's problems, useful idiots in the west will blame Israel.

No matter who is to blame a total collapse of Gaza will have serious consequences. People will have to go somewhere - either Egypt, Israel or - if blocked by their neighbours - they will try to reach Europe. So this is another refugee time bomb waiting to happen.

They'll be swarming the Israeli fence, a true leadership would have understood the necessity in Gaza's redevelopment and allowed for a port to be formed. And lets not forget Sisi's proposal to give away some Egyptian swathes of territory to tackle this problem but current Israeli leadership is busy fighting Obama at congress

It is rare for a leader to offer to cede territory voluntarily. How much was he willing to give away?

The exact scope was unclear (or just hadn't been published) but that ship had sailed they have new plans for Egyptian Rafih area

[Silent Hunter]

To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.

[DavidB.]

To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.

Israeli society has shifted to the right, it's not just a Netanyahu thing. I would bet a lot of money that the next Likud leader will be further to the right (with regard to the conflict) than Netanyahu.

[Comrade Funk]

To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.

Israeli society has shifted to the right, it's not just a Netanyahu thing. I would bet a lot of money that the next Likud leader will be further to the right (with regard to the conflict) than Netanyahu.

Then Israel will lose all the international legitimacy it has left. No one left to blame if they keep this up and move to the right.

[DavidB.]

To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.

Israeli society has shifted to the right, it's not just a Netanyahu thing. I would bet a lot of money that the next Likud leader will be further to the right (with regard to the conflict) than Netanyahu.

Then Israel will lose all the international legitimacy it has left. No one left to blame if they keep this up and move to the right.

See if they care. The world has failed us so many times, yet we're still here and we'll stay.

But let's not have that normative debate, as my statement regarding Israel's shift to the right was merely descriptive.

[dead0man]

BDS gets another win!

SodaStream leaves West Bank[quote]Ali Jafar, a shift manager from a West Bank village who has worked for SodaStream for two years, said: “All the people who wanted to close [SodaStream’s West Bank factory] are mistaken. … They didn’t take into consideration the families.”

“SodaStream should have been encouraged in the West Bank if [the BDS movement] truly cared about the Palestinian people,” Birnbaum said.

Palestinians, like other employees, are offered a bus service that brings them to the factory but that will now become a two-hour journey each way that involves crossing an Israeli checkpoint, where workers must show permits and be screened for security checks.

The BDS movement wants to end Israel’s occupation of territories captured in the 1967 war, end discrimination against Arab citizens of Israel and promote the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to family properties lost in the war surrounding Israel’s creation in 1948. Israel says the Palestinian “right of return” would lead to a massive influx of refugees that would mean the end of the country as a Jewish state.

For the BDS movement, SodaStream’s pullout from the West Bank was part of a domino effect that would see more companies sever interests to spare their bottom line. “This is a clear-cut BDS victory against an odiously complicit Israeli company,” said Omar Barghouti, a co-founder of the movement. He said it would continue to target SodaStream because its new factory is located in an area where Israel has in the past proposed to resettle Bedouin Arabs. The company employs more than 300 Bedouins.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.

It has as much to do with the next US President as it does with the next Israeli PM. I don't think Netanyahu is willing to negotiate with Obama at the table anymore.

[Hnv1]

To be honest, I don't think there's going to be any serious moves towards a peace settlement until the current Israeli PM leaves the political scene.

Israeli society has shifted to the right, it's not just a Netanyahu thing. I would bet a lot of money that the next Likud leader will be further to the right (with regard to the conflict) than Netanyahu.

True, more accurately religion is a bigger part for larger swathes of Israeli society. But I would note that despite this shift to the right a majority of Israelis would still support a viable 2 state solution.

regarding the forecast for the future, I don't think someone to the right of Bibi could be elected (he wouldn't be able to form a coalition), I think some centre figure with a strong emphasis on Jewish identity would win - a form of soft Bibi sadly I think this man is Lapid

[Angel of Death]

The mother in the Duma arson attack succumbed to her wounds.

[danny]

since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results:

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%

Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

[Vosem]

After Danon's resignation and replacement by Canadian-born Sharren Haskel, 2 more members of the Knesset have resigned: Shai Piron of Yesh Atid, who was Minister of Education under the Likud-YA coalition, who will be replaced by former Hatnuah MK Elazar Stern, and Sharon (in fact a guy) Gal, a newly-elected MK from Yisrael Beiteinu, who will return to his career in journalism; he is replaced by Oded Forer, a former bureaucrat from the Ministry of Immigrant Absorption.

[SATW]

Good. Sharon Gal is a twerp and obnoxious (much like Yisrael Beiteinu as a whole, I guess, but I digress).

[SATW]

since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results:

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%

Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

[Intell]

since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results:

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

[Dan the Roman]

since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results:

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

Not accepting them in Israel almost certainly is. Decisions don't occur in moral vacuums distinct from reality. An employee of Wal-Mart is not evil because he fails to donate $100,000 to help a Syrian family or any less moral than a billionaire.

That said, Israel should probably donate to help resettle the refugees elsewhere.

[Intell]

since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results:

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

Not accepting them in Israel almost certainly is. Decisions don't occur in moral vacuums distinct from reality. An employee of Wal-Mart is not evil because he fails to donate $100,000 to help a Syrian family or any less moral than a billionaire.

That said, Israel should probably donate to help resettle the refugees elsewhere.

'

How does Isreal, as well as other countries, get a pass for not taking in refugees. Especially Isreal, which gets the coddlement of the US and most western countries, and the highest military aid from the US, get the pass of not taking the humane position of taking in refugees

[Dan the Roman]

since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results:

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

Not accepting them in Israel almost certainly is. Decisions don't occur in moral vacuums distinct from reality. An employee of Wal-Mart is not evil because he fails to donate $100,000 to help a Syrian family or any less moral than a billionaire.

That said, Israel should probably donate to help resettle the refugees elsewhere.

'

How does Isreal, as well as other countries, get a pass for not taking in refugees. Especially Isreal, which gets the coddlement of the US and most western countries, and the highest military aid from the US, get the pass of not taking the humane position of taking in refugees

Because such obligations do not arise in a vacuum. Belgium probably should be expected to take in as many as the US, which is far larger. Furthermore, national security is a legitimate national interest. Latvia might have a legislate reason why it would not want to take in hundreds of thousands of Russian refugees.

Any sane person looking at this objectively would see why Israel, a country that has its own political conflicts based on demographics, would not want to take in a large population of people who have spent their entire lives in a regime based around advocating the murder of Jews and of Israel's population. The only reason someone would be demanding this as some sort of intellectually dishonest stick to beat Israel over, as an excuse to bring up their objections to Israel existing as it is. If you think Israel should not exist, fine, say so out-loud, but don't pretend to hide behind a humanitarian duty to refugees to do it.

Nation's exist to protect their populations. There is never a moral obligation for a nation to commit suicide.

[ag]

since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results:

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

Not accepting them in Israel almost certainly is. Decisions don't occur in moral vacuums distinct from reality. An employee of Wal-Mart is not evil because he fails to donate $100,000 to help a Syrian family or any less moral than a billionaire.

That said, Israel should probably donate to help resettle the refugees elsewhere.

'

How does Isreal, as well as other countries, get a pass for not taking in refugees. Especially Isreal, which gets the coddlement of the US and most western countries, and the highest military aid from the US, get the pass of not taking the humane position of taking in refugees

Israel is at war with Syria. So, I guess, it could be validly claimed to be a special case.

Now, the much more serious issue is that the situation highlights the need for a Palestinian state. At the very elast, there are hundreds of thousands of people of Palestinian origin in Syria who would have been happily accepted into Palestine - if a Palestinian government would be free to make such a decision. That is even without considering the fact that Palestine may have accepted Syrians as refugees as well.

I would give Israelis the pass on accomodating refugees inside Israel proper. But what should be requested is Israel letting PA to admit, at the very least, Palestinian refugees from Syria and Iraq. And, of course, PA should be helped accomodating the resettlement - I am sure even Danes would be quite happy to pay their share for this

[ingemann]

since the issue of Syrian refugees has come up, a poll has been done about with very definitive results:

Do you support or oppose accepting refugees in Israel?

Oppose: 80%
Support: 11%
Don't know: 9%


Bibi is definitely with most Israelis on this issue.

Good. very glad to see most Israelis are sensible on this.

Sane! Not accepting war-torn refugees is the f*king sane person.

Not accepting them in Israel almost certainly is. Decisions don't occur in moral vacuums distinct from reality. An employee of Wal-Mart is not evil because he fails to donate $100,000 to help a Syrian family or any less moral than a billionaire.

That said, Israel should probably donate to help resettle the refugees elsewhere.

'

How does Isreal, as well as other countries, get a pass for not taking in refugees. Especially Isreal, which gets the coddlement of the US and most western countries, and the highest military aid from the US, get the pass of not taking the humane position of taking in refugees

Israel is at war with Syria. So, I guess, it could be validly claimed to be a special case.

Now, the much more serious issue is that the situation highlights the need for a Palestinian state. At the very elast, there are hundreds of thousands of people of Palestinian origin in Syria who would have been happily accepted into Palestine - if a Palestinian government would be free to make such a decision. That is even without considering the fact that Palestine may have accepted Syrians as refugees as well.

I would give Israelis the pass on accomodating refugees inside Israel proper. But what should be requested is Israel letting PA to admit, at the very least, Palestinian refugees from Syria and Iraq. And, of course, PA should be helped accomodating the resettlement - I am sure even Danes would be quite happy to pay their share for this

I don't care to pay for the illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, if Israel want to keep its two puppet regimes of Quislings in place, they can pay for itself.