Israel general discussion

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

[M]ost young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

Maybe if you define pro-Hamas as not seeing why America should prop up a successful first world country such as Israel.

[Famous Mortimer]

[M]ost young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

Maybe if you define pro-Hamas as not seeing why America should prop up a successful first world country such as Israel.

No, I define being pro-Hamas as thinking Hamas is a "legitimate political party", a "left-wing force", and that their violence is generally understandable if not justified. Coupled with views that Zionism is inherently racist and that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state. These are pretty mainstream views among young people now.

Some of these feelings are inspired by bad US and Israeli policy. Most of them though are just a result of the dominant strains in campus culture. It doesn't matter if a Palestinian kills an Israeli child with a knife. The Israeli child probably had access to a cell phone, the internet, and a house with insulation. The Palestinian doesn't have those things so he is oppressed and thus, he is in the right. Who is more oppressed is the only moral logic that matters, at least that's what most young people think.

[MaxQue]

[M]ost young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

Maybe if you define pro-Hamas as not seeing why America should prop up a successful first world country such as Israel.

Ignore Mortimer, he usually talks nonsense and he apparently didn't set foot in an university since long.

[Famous Mortimer]

You're right. I haven't been in college in about 10 years. Back then, they didn't teach this type of stuff, or if they did, it was just a few professors and nobody bought it, they just feigned it for a few papers until the semester was over. Now it's universally taught and universally believed.

[Seneca]

You're right. I haven't been in college in about 10 years. Back then, they didn't teach this type of stuff, or if they did, it was just a few professors and nobody bought it, they just feigned it for a few papers until the semester was over. Now it's universally taught and universally believed.

The vulgar version of privilege theory you are referencing is absolutely not "universally taught" in college classrooms. Not by a long-shot. That ideology permeates within left activist circles well enough on its own; it doesn't need any help from that old Marxist Professor canard.

That said, vulgar privilege theory, what I'll call VPT for short, has absolutely been disastrous within the left. If I was conspiracy minded I might blame a Frank Luntz type spinster for inventing the thing. An obvious example of how VPT has damaged leftist politics can be found in the Occupy general assemblies. As in all large assemblies of equals, the initial participants found it necessary to appoint officers to insure conversation flowed and no one dominated speaking time. We might refer to the officer charged with facilitating the assembly as the "stack taker," as one of their primary roles would be to note who wished to speak so as to prevent 50 people from standing around with their hands raised, each thinking it as their turn to speak next. Unfortunately, as a consequence of VPT, certain activists introduced the idea of "Progressive stack."

Progressive stack incorporates the idea of privilege hierarchies into stack taking. In this system, those viewed as "most oppressed," that is to say non-whites, women, LGBT people, etc. were moved above their white, male, straight, etc. counterparts. As you might imagine, this well-meaning change proved disastrous. The supposedly privileged groups typically respond to progressive stack in one of two ways; they interpret it as a personal attack and leave the group, or the become passive. Each reaction weakens the assembly. Then, the supposedly "oppressed" people monopolize speaking time, oftentimes soap-boxing in the faces of facilitators who are too timid to cut them off. This time-wasting fatally damages the movement, causing the general assembly, which initially came together to accomplish some goals, to spin apart into a much smaller echo-chamber.

This style of politics is fundamentally impotent. VPT paralyzes social movements, encouraging an ideological discourse which is simultaneously guilt-ridden and paranoid. It is remarkably similar to the vulgar Maoism that infected the US left in the late sixties and early seventies. Just replace "check your privilege" with "criticize, self criticize" and you're most of the way there. If you're not a member of the activist left, I would frankly be overjoyed that VPT is becoming hegemonic within that political sphere. All a VPT inspired left will ever be is a punching bag for opposition groups, like the reactionaries who in recent years have taken over sites like reddit with rhetoric which demonizes the "SJWs" but which also carries clear white-supremacist and neo-fascist impulses.

[Hnv1]

A Poll of Israelis about the US presidential election:
Clinton: 41%
Trump: 14%
Cruz: 7%
Sanders: 5%
Rubio: 4%
No Opinion: 29%

obviously, it's mostly about name recognition at this point.

This. The average Israeli is very ignorant of American politics and he gets his info from Yediot or Israel Hayom. Yediot with their Haim Saban ties are very pro Clinton, and Israel Hayom like Sheldon Adelson is undecided yet. Trump is a populist and anti-muslim like some Israelis like, Clinton is very familiar and Bill was very popular here.
Sanders on the other hand gets mentioned only in Haaretz (though not to fondly) and is supported by facebook left wing dorks.

But my bet is Bibi would like either Rubio or Clinton to win with the former of course the first preference.

[DavidB.]

But my bet is Bibi would like either Rubio or Clinton to win with the former of course the first preference.

Bibi would obviously prefer Cruz over Clinton as well.

[Hnv1]

But my bet is Bibi would like either Rubio or Clinton to win with the former of course the first preference.

Bibi would obviously prefer Cruz over Clinton as well.

I'm not sure about it. Clinton is not going to cause him any problems regarding the Palestinian issue and will provide a stronger shield than what a Cruz regime could muster around the world. Clinton could block off European initiatives Cruz couldn't.

The interesting question is who would he least prefer Trump or Sanders.

[DavidB.]

I'm not sure about it. Clinton is not going to cause him any problems regarding the Palestinian issue and will provide a stronger shield than what a Cruz regime could muster around the world. Clinton could block off European initiatives Cruz couldn't.

I am not at all sure about this. The Democratic Party is changing and it is not going to return to the pre-Obama status-quo on Israel. A Clinton administration would be likely to push for new peace negotiations. A Cruz administration would not.

The interesting question is who would he least prefer Trump or Sanders.

This is a very hard question for me as well, and I hope it will not become relevant.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm not sure about it. Clinton is not going to cause him any problems regarding the Palestinian issue and will provide a stronger shield than what a Cruz regime could muster around the world. Clinton could block off European initiatives Cruz couldn't.

I am not at all sure about this. The Democratic Party is changing and it is not going to return to the pre-Obama status-quo on Israel. A Clinton administration would be likely to push for new peace negotiations. A Cruz administration would not.

Without some change on the part of the Israelis or the Palestinians, regardless of whether negotiations are held, there will be no change in the official situation.  I don't see Clinton doing anything beyond jaw-jaw to try and bring the two sides together.

[dead0man]

Good news!  4 Hamas tunnels have collapsed in the last two weeks killing 10.

[danny]

New poll from Maariv:

Likud: 27
Yesh Atid: 18
ZU: 15
Joint List: 12
Jewish Home: 12
Yisrael Beitenu: 10
Shas: 7
UTJ: 6
Kulanu: 6
Meretz: 6

[DavidB.]

Herzogmentum! The YUGE WALL proposal didn't really work for him, did it? Maybe it's because he's too low energy.

Right/religious parties at 72 seats (without Kulanu). Wonder when Zehut is going to take off and going to be polled.

[Hnv1]

inter election polls in Israel are only good to spot trends and the only clear ones here is Herzog's fall and Liberman's relative revival. Like always before a GE all sorts of gimmicks occur and we get a different electoral map.

Doubt Zehut will poll more than 2-3

[danny]

Channel one poll:

Likud: 25
Yesh Atid: 21
ZU: 15
Joint List: 13
Jewish Home: 12
Yisrael Beitenu: 8
UTJ: 7
Shas: 7
Meretz: 6
Kulanu: 6

The biggest change being the collapse of ZU (Herzog has been terrible) with the lost votes being gained by Lapid.

[DavidB.]

This is a fairly interesting article about the only remotely realistic way in which centrist/center-leftist parties might be able to oust Netanyahu.

[SATW]

This is a fairly interesting article about the only remotely realistic way in which centrist/center-leftist parties might be able to oust Netanyahu.

Interesting article, but the word "curious" appeared waaaay too many time in this piece haha

[DavidB.]

This is a fairly interesting article about the only remotely realistic way in which centrist/center-leftist parties might be able to oust Netanyahu.

Interesting article, but the word "curious" appeared waaaay too many time in this piece haha

Yeah, he's generally not the best writer. Maybe that's why he moved to Israel Still, his #analysis is often pretty good.

[RightBehind]

Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

[Vosem]

Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Well, aren't you charming.

[Comrade Funk]

Israel is probably the only country that would rather want Trump more than even Hillary. We need to stop acting like they're our brothers and start treating them like other countries. I'm so sick of Israeli hypocrisy over the Jewish state nonsense while grabbing more land. It only hurts Americans.

Is there any center-leftist that can run for Labor leadership and win? At least give us some hope instead of replaying the cycle

[RightBehind]

Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

This Sanders supporter is Pro-Palestine. I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm against the terrorist state that is Israel. They're a parasitic country. The United States owes Israel nothing. My allegiance is to America, not Israel.

Remember: Israel needs America. Not the other way around.

Well, aren't you charming.

I'm speaking the truth. AIPAC are complete scum who pull puppet strings in this country.

I'm proud to say I do not stand with Israel.

[RightBehind]

Israel is probably the only country that would rather want Trump more than even Hillary. We need to stop acting like they're our brothers and start treating them like other countries. I'm so sick of Israeli hypocrisy over the Jewish state nonsense while grabbing more land. It only hurts Americans.

Is there any center-leftist that can run for Labor leadership and win? At least give us some hope instead of replaying the cycle

Criticizing Israel is an unofficial crime in this country. We need someone to stand up to their atrocities.

[Vosem]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

[RightBehind]

You're not even repeating the old lies so we can rebuke you. You're just stringing together random negative buzzwords.

What lies? That Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir were terrorists? They were. That Israel oppresses Palestinian children and that the real monsters are the likes of Ayelet Shaked? It's completely true.

Let Israel stand for themselves. Let Netanyahu lead the fight against ISIL. I guess the Islamic State was amongst the enormous positive reverberations he was talking about when he went before Congress in 2002.

Israel has committed evil atrocities. We must divest and they must be sent to The Hague.