Israel general discussion

[Famous Mortimer]

Okay, Herzog appears to be adopting the old Kadima line (unilateral disengagement from the Palestinians and foregoing negotiations) rather than coming out as a one stater.

[MaxQue]

Bibi is more and more insane, accusing Ban Ki-Moon of encouraging terrorism for saying that new settlements are throwing oil on the fire.

I suppose most Westerners are encouraging terrorism, then.

[MalaspinaGold]

Okay, Herzog appears to be adopting the old Kadima line (unilateral disengagement from the Palestinians and foregoing negotiations) rather than coming out as a one stater.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.698391
Translation: It's gonna be the best, classiest, most luxurious wall we've ever had.

[Hnv1]

two polls from today (yeah get your salt ready)
Likud - 30
ZU - 18
Lapid - 18
JAL - 13
Liberman - 9
JH - 9
Shas -8
UTJ - 6
Meretz - 5
Kulano - 4
_______________________________________________________

Likud - 23
Lapid - 20
ZU - 16
JH - 13
JAL - 12
Kulano - 9
Liberman - 8
Meretz -7
UTJ - 6
Shas - 6

[Silent Hunter]

OK, this may be a stupid question, but why couldn't there be a single state of Israel and Palestine, with both peoples having equal rights... and getting along?

[dead0man]

Because a sizable number of very violent people don't want that.  It's, apparently, better to try to appease these people instead of killing them.  The problem is, they don't want to be appeased.  They want what they want and if they don't get it, they will murder and convince others to murder.  Get rid of those people, stop making more of them and there will be peace in less than a year.

Of course even if we went with that solution, it would still be an amazingly hard road.  There are no easy answers here.

[Famous Mortimer]

OK, this may be a stupid question, but why couldn't there be a single state of Israel and Palestine, with both peoples having equal rights... and getting along?

1) Economic inequality. The Israelis are a relatively rich first world nation. The Palestinians are poor, the Gaza Palestinians specifically are at African levels of economic development. It would be like having one government to govern the populations of Missouri and Togo. Even if the people didn't initially want to kill each other, economic imbalance would bread resentment.

2) Jewish desire for ethnic supremacy. Some of this is fueled by religious fanaticism, a belief that God promised the Jewish people the land. Some of it is fueled by a belief that the Holocaust put the Jews in a unique situation where they must be the dominant group in their own country in order to prevent a future genocide. At this point though, the desire is mostly fueled by habit.

3) Islamic desire for Islamic supremacy. Hardline Palestinians want an Islamic state. They either want to expel the Jews or make them second class citizens, which of course the Jews wouldn't accept. Some secular Palestinians also want to expel the Jews although this is honestly probably exaggerated by the Israeli side.

It's probably the least least worst/only workable option though. I expect Israeli will see a swift, unexpected Soviet style collapse in the next 20 years.

[Hnv1]

OK, this may be a stupid question, but why couldn't there be a single state of Israel and Palestine, with both peoples having equal rights... and getting along?

why can't there be a Utopian one state with a  functioning liberal democracy? well:
A. in any scenario leading up to such state rivers of bloodshed will be poured
B. neither side is yet willing to respect the other's self-determination to the required extent that a parliament of such state could function (or most "average Joes" in each side cannot cope with the notion of a single state where his side does not have the upper hand
C. I'm developing B, Israel hardly has a solid liberal section that can maintain liberal-democratic values in Israel itself (and as it seems their numbers are shrinking by the day), Palestinian society definitely doesn't have the required secular-liberal mass. The one state with liberal values will be fighting an uphill battle from its inception

[ag]

Because a sizable number of very violent people don't want that.  It's, apparently, better to try to appease these people instead of killing them.  The problem is, they don't want to be appeased.  They want what they want and if they don't get it, they will murder and convince others to murder.  Get rid of those people, stop making more of them and there will be peace in less than a year.

Of course even if we went with that solution, it would still be an amazingly hard road.  There are no easy answers here.

I did not expect such a strong anti-Zionist tirade from you.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Could the solution be something like Belgium? That is, a relatively powerless (con)federal assembly to oversee things and solve disputes; and two powerful legislatures to run both Palestine and Israel and their respective ethnic communities (+ one more for Jerusalem, like Brussels is currently run) in their own way.

[DavidB.]

Could the solution be something like Belgium? That is, a relatively powerless (con)federal assembly to oversee things and solve disputes; and two powerful legislatures to run both Palestine and Israel and their respective ethnic communities (+ one more for Jerusalem, like Brussels is currently run) in their own way.

This is still (roughly) my preferred "solution".

[MalaspinaGold]

Could the solution be something like Belgium? That is, a relatively powerless (con)federal assembly to oversee things and solve disputes; and two powerful legislatures to run both Palestine and Israel and their respective ethnic communities (+ one more for Jerusalem, like Brussels is currently run) in their own way.

Didn't Belgium just go two and a half years without a government or something? Somehow I don't see Israel and Palestine doing any better.
And, at that point, why bother having unity if it's just cosmetic?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It's probably the least least worst/only workable option though. I expect Israeli will see a swift, unexpected Soviet style collapse in the next 20 years.

Maybe in 50 years, tho I think even that would be considerably early for such an event. While the status quo is hardly desirable, for the average Israeli, it is tolerable.  I'm not seeing any news of Jewish emigration from Israel, and I suspect those who care about such statistics would probably tell us we're still seeing net immigration to Israel. Israel's neighbors are in a mess, and it will take them at least a generation for them to straighten things out so that they can begin to close the gap with Israel, let alone begin to cause it enuf concern that a collapse of the current State of Israel could occur. Even then, if said 'collapse' happened that soon, it would be of Zionist democracy and its replacement by Zionist dictatorship and/or theocracy.

[Vosem]

Because a sizable number of very violent people don't want that.  It's, apparently, better to try to appease these people instead of killing them.  The problem is, they don't want to be appeased.  They want what they want and if they don't get it, they will murder and convince others to murder.  Get rid of those people, stop making more of them and there will be peace in less than a year.

Of course even if we went with that solution, it would still be an amazingly hard road.  There are no easy answers here.

I did not expect such a strong anti-Zionist tirade from you.

I suggest you read the paragraph again

It's probably the least least worst/only workable option though. I expect Israeli will see a swift, unexpected Soviet style collapse in the next 20 years.

Israel will not see a "Soviet-style" collapse because Israel (especially if, like most people in this thread seem to, you define Israel by pre-1967 borders) is not a geographically polarized multinational state. As Ernest also pointed out, the only force that comes remotely close to being able to topple the current Israeli system is further-right-wing Zionists (and in any scenario where they come to power it is one where they have reached an understanding with America and continue to benefit from American support); at no point in the history of the entire State of Israel has it been more safe from outside threats.

This constant prediction of Israel's impending collapse even as it continues to strengthen strongly reminds me of medieval European attitudes towards the Ottoman Empire. Even at its very peak, when Suleiman the Magnificent was reigning, medieval European sources were totally, utterly confident that the state was on the verge of collapse. (I suppose they did turn out to be right, in a sense; the state was ultimately replaced 300 years later by a more nationalist entity).

[dead0man]

AND Israel's economy is rockin'.  There are a lot of countries more likely than Israel to collapse in the next twenty years.

[Lurker]

Could the solution be something like Belgium? That is, a relatively powerless (con)federal assembly to oversee things and solve disputes; and two powerful legislatures to run both Palestine and Israel and their respective ethnic communities (+ one more for Jerusalem, like Brussels is currently run) in their own way.

Don't see how this would solve, say, the problem of the settlements.

I think the long-time hatred between the two groups are far too powerful for any "Belgian" solution to conceivably work, at least for the foreseeable future. Still, any other proposed solutions seems just as unrealistic...

[Hnv1]

K maybe this board need a different Israel-Palestine thread where everybody can post and be right all the time with their flawless geopolitical analysis and in this thread we could discuss Israeli politics?

[Silent Hunter]

With all due respect, it is really a major issue in your country's politics.

[danny]

A Poll of Israelis about the US presidential election:
Clinton: 41%
Trump: 14%
Cruz: 7%
Sanders: 5%
Rubio: 4%
No Opinion: 29%

obviously, it's mostly about name recognition at this point.

[danny]

It was recently revealed that Bernie Sanders volunteered at Kibbutz Sha'ar Ha'amakim in his youth, so I thought I would check their voting in the last election:
ZU: 55.3%
Meretz: 34.2%
Yesh Atid: 6.7%
Kulanu: 1.4%
Green Leaf: 0.9%
Likud: 0.7%

Yeah, not very surprising.

[Hnv1]

It was recently revealed that Bernie Sanders volunteered at Kibbutz Sha'ar Ha'amakim in his youth, so I thought I would check their voting in the last election:
ZU: 55.3%
Meretz: 34.2%
Yesh Atid: 6.7%
Kulanu: 1.4%
Green Leaf: 0.9%
Likud: 0.7%

Yeah, not very surprising.

It was actually once a "capital" kibbutz for Hashomer Hatzair and Mapam and a strong Meretz voting hub. But like many Kibutzim of Mapam it drifted strongly toward Labour. There are still some very left wing Mapam Kibutzim out there but the general trend had been toward Labour. During the 60's though...it was hard to the left and they still held strong Marxist-Leninist views and USSR links.

Also, since this was revealed it caused quite a stir. The Sanders campaign did some tremendous efforts to conceal the identity of the Kibutz he was in (and his brother even flat out lied). Many conspiracy theories sprung as Sanders also divorced his first wife after they left...some suggested checking to see who was born some 9 months later

[danny]

It was actually once a "capital" kibbutz for Hashomer Hatzair and Mapam and a strong Meretz voting hub. But like many Kibutzim of Mapam it drifted strongly toward Labour. There are still some very left wing Mapam Kibutzim out there but the general trend had been toward Labour. During the 60's though...it was hard to the left and they still held strong Marxist-Leninist views and USSR links.

Also, since this was revealed it caused quite a stir. The Sanders campaign did some tremendous efforts to conceal the identity of the Kibutz he was in (and his brother even flat out lied). Many conspiracy theories sprung as Sanders also divorced his first wife after they left...some suggested checking to see who was born some 9 months later

Very odd that he would try to conceal that, I don't see why that Kibbutz would matter over another.

[DavidB.]

Very odd that he would try to conceal that, I don't see why that Kibbutz would matter over another.

Because it makes it much more "tangible" for people. It it not just an idea anymore if you have a name, it is actually something you can look up, find pictures of, et cetera. It is very real.

[Famous Mortimer]

Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Even though Sanders is the most Israeli critical of all the serious presidential candidates, a lot of holier than thou leftists who are always anxious to call people out want to pin him as being pro-Israel. This is a major problem because most young people in America (his base) are basically pro-Hamas.

Yeah, there's been a lot of fairly explicit anti-semitism surrounding Sanders and Israel. It's very clear they're holding him to a completely different standard than Clinton, to say nothing of the Republicans.

Diane Rehm's "Secret dual citizenship" thing was probably the most blatant moment.