Israel general discussion

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The UN gave them no wiggle room on this. By turning every Jewish home in eastern Jerusalem into the equivalent of an illegal outpost, the UN gave Israel the choice between total surrender and waiting for the UN to declare Tel Aviv illegally occupied, or holding the line and making clear to the UN that their filthy piece of paper means nothing. They made the right choice.

The u.n resolution amounted to little more than an angry letter. There is nothing that the u.n could do to stop Israel from building settlements that would not get vetoed by the u.s

Not only that, but the Knesset is playing into every tiresome anti-Semitic trope about "thieving Jews" by telling private Palestinians that they'll be making them offers they can't refuse.  Oh well, at least the excrement is unlikely to hit the rotating air circulation device while I'm still alive to see it.  That of course plays into why such shenanigans happen.  The long term impact of such actions are unlikely to cause trouble during the lifetimes of those voting to set Israel firmly upon the path of kleptocracy and in the short term, they likely will benefit politically.

[Ronnie]

The Knesset just passed the settlements bill: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38888649

[Hnv1]

The Knesset just passed the settlements bill: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38888649

Shame on all those involved. The "brave" ones on the right who know it's unconstitutional and against IHL but still legislated it so they could have a double profit - legislating and shouting at the Supreme Court when they void it. Shame on Bibi who didn't want this but his criminal investigations are making him very easy to maneuver by Bennet and by his own MKs. Shame on the courts who are going to void it instead of signalling to the right wing legislature that if they want to swim in sh**t they're not going to clean them up.

Anyway I speculate that Bibi's indictments are quite near (my peers who are criminal lawyers are dead certain of it), a wounded animal is always more dangerous so I expect some escalation with Hamas\PA very very soon.

[DavidB.]

All talk, no action by the Israeli right, as always. This would be amazing theoretically, but the courts are going to declare it null and void anyway. Everything for PR, misleading voters, and blaming everything on the courts... and all that while the Knesset can simply decide to add new justices. If only the government wanted actual right-wing change instead of simply posturing while actually being chickens.

That said... why are Israeli courts so left-wing while right-wing governments have been in power since the early 2000s save for a few exceptions?

[ApatheticAustrian]

"the government" doesn't want it...bibi himself seems to be opposed but benett enforces it afaik.

and i think, this is like in the US...right-wing judges are usually not "right-wing" but married to the constitution.

court packing would be the death of the democracy in israel, imho. it's the biggest difference to all other countries in the region.

[Hnv1]

All talk, no action by the Israeli right, as always. This would be amazing theoretically, but the courts are going to declare it null and void anyway. Everything for PR, misleading voters, and blaming everything on the courts... and all that while the Knesset can simply decide to add new justices. If only the government wanted actual right-wing change instead of simply posturing while actually being chickens.

That said... why are Israeli courts so left-wing while right-wing governments have been in power since the early 2000s save for a few exceptions?

There are genuinely 2 left wing justices in the court, the court chief is actually right wing but as with most jurists the underlying ideology they all share is liberalism (more of the classic one).

[SATW]

I'm supportive of this bill but its fairly obvious that it will be struck down. It's a genius political move by Bibi and Bennett, though. Pretending to feed the base, then bash the courts, and then do nothing.

I really don't get my fellow right-winger's hate for Israeli courts. I dislike many of their decisions but at the same time a strong judicial system is a must in any democratic government.

[DavidB.]

There is nothing democratic about unelected activist judges overturning decisions made by elected politicians. The argument that ending Israeli courts' excessive powers would somehow end liberal democracy doesn't fly with me either, as I live in a country that is generally viewed as a liberal democracy yet courts here don't have the right to constitutional review. Politicians have the last say and that's what's really democratic.

Hnv1's answer is unconvincing to me, though I obviously believe most people with a law degree in Israel are left-leaning. Time to put a bunch of Itamar Ben-Gvirs on the court to restore the balance, I'd say. Courts overturning a law like this would increase support with the public to make the changes necessary (though Ben-Gvir remains unlikely, lol). If a more right-wing PM takes over after Netanyahu is gone and the right somehow gets a majority without the Kulanu cucks, it can be done.

[Hnv1]

There is nothing democratic about unelected activist judges overturning decisions made by elected politicians. The argument that ending Israeli courts' excessive powers would somehow end liberal democracy doesn't fly with me either, as I live in a country that is generally viewed as a liberal democracy yet courts here don't have the right to constitutional review. Politicians have the last say and that's what's really democratic.

Hnv1's answer is unconvincing to me, though I obviously believe most people with a law degree in Israel are left-leaning. Time to put a bunch of Itamar Ben-Gvirs on the court to restore the balance, I'd say. Courts overturning a law like this would increase support with the public to make the changes necessary (though Ben-Gvir remains unlikely, lol). If a more right-wing PM takes over after Netanyahu is gone and the right somehow gets a majority without the Kulanu cucks, it can be done.

Well I attended what is considered the most elite law faculty in Israel (and the one most judges attended) and we weren't majority left (though the left and the right tended to drift to the extreme), considering that was the state here it's obviously more to the right in any other law faculty in the country (bar for Tel Aviv). Actually coming to think of it Smutric and Levin both attended my faculty. Perhaps people with law degrees are more left considering the general population but that's a natural phenomena everywhere with higher formal education. Historically the court was centre-right liberal and that didn't change much, as I said of this court there are two justices who are leftists and a similar number of right wingers the rest are bland centrists. The judiciary should not mirror the political landscape, it wasn't like that in the days of the Mapai junta and it shouldn't be like that now.

Comparing Israel and the Netherlands, apples and oranges. As to the mandate of elected representatives I never cared much for it (to the disgust of my friends to the left), I said it once and I'll say it again there's nothing intrinsically valuable in democracy

[DavidB.]

Well, it is perhaps not surprising, but I'm on the very other side of the political divide in the sense that I think the liberal component of liberal democracy is highly overvalued. Separation of powers way too often means channeling power away from the people. The efforts to restore real democracy in Hungary (despite the opinions of the NGOs, the EU, Angela Merkel, you name them) are a shining example to me. Both the West and Israel are in need of going down that road, but for Israel it is more urgent. However, a big downside to the Hungarian trajectory has been (even more) rampant corruption, and this, unfortunately, would probably be unavoidable in Israel as well. This development also too often hurts the working class and the middle class because oligarchs start herding power and wealth to an even higher degree, which is the last thing Israel needs. Society needs someone who is independent of these powers, someone not afraid to take a stand against them and, indeed, to destroy their oligopoly.

[ApatheticAustrian]

i can respect....even while not sharing...the sentiment of literal, uncontrolled, direct democracy but hungary is as stacked in one direction as is turkey. seems like a bad example, imho

[DavidB.]

I agree that the situation in Hungary is far from ideal. It should definitely not be used as a blueprint but rather as an example of the direction governments should follow, in which the opinions of unelected establishment powers, including activist judges, crazy NGOs and foreign countries who don't understand their place, are taken into account to a much smaller degree.

[America Needs R'hllor]

There is nothing democratic about unelected activist judges overturning decisions made by elected politicians. The argument that ending Israeli courts' excessive powers would somehow end liberal democracy doesn't fly with me either, as I live in a country that is generally viewed as a liberal democracy yet courts here don't have the right to constitutional review. Politicians have the last say and that's what's really democratic.

Hnv1's answer is unconvincing to me, though I obviously believe most people with a law degree in Israel are left-leaning. Time to put a bunch of Itamar Ben-Gvirs on the court to restore the balance, I'd say. Courts overturning a law like this would increase support with the public to make the changes necessary (though Ben-Gvir remains unlikely, lol). If a more right-wing PM takes over after Netanyahu is gone and the right somehow gets a majority without the Kulanu cucks, it can be done.

Though I disagree with your opinion about the judiciary system, I can respect it because it's well-thought and not pure populism.
However, I will say this- Itamar Ben Gvir is one of the few politicians I feel no hesitation calling fascists as ideologically bad as neo-nazis. He and his band of raving lunatics, such as the Lehava 'organization' (in '' because they're the closest thing to Jewish terrorists since the Kah movement and should be outlawed) are all disgusting.

[ApatheticAustrian]

as far as i am concered, the charming lady holding the title of justice secretary is kind of fascist herself. but that's just me.

[DavidB.]

I agree on Lehava, they're bad hombres. Saw a march of them through Yafo Street in Jerusalem and they said very bad things. I was shocked and felt ashamed to be Jewish in their presence. Though most were underaged kids parroting stuff they heard in the football stadium. I don't actually want Ben-Gvir on the court, it was hyperbole; my point was that not all judges have to be or should be liberals. I'd just like the judiciary to be more in sync politically with the government.

[ApatheticAustrian]

let's be clear without hyperbole or name-calling:

is the separation of power a problem, an obstacle for democracy or something which just adapts itself if someone wins one or several elections?

if think this is a global "problem" aka a burning question.

[Hnv1]

As it seems Livni will take a post as a UN USG, finally a respectable outlet for her. Hatnua will probably merge in some capacity with Labour following this move.

[America Needs R'hllor]

There were, if I remember correctly, two police raids on two different municipalities in the past two weeks. This reminds me of the discussion we had here a few months ago- the municipal authorities in Israel are corrupt to the core. A drastic solution is needed.

[DavidB.]

I didn't think I would ever say it again, but at this point I'm glad to have Netanyahu at the helm. Under the Trump presidency it remains important to be cautious in taking any steps that would limit the number of options in the future. Annexing area C in its entirety would be the height of foolishness, and while I align ideologically with some of the people on the Likud right, they are manifestly unfit to lead the country. Perhaps I'm becoming more of a moderate, but I think Netanyahu is handling the relationship with the Trump administration the right way.

Though this doesn't change any of my other criticisms of Netanyahu and Likud when it comes to domestic issues (oligopolies, economy, cost of living, judicial overreach, NGOs, "social issues", corruption etc.). I also don't want to know what Netanyahu will do in a new election campaign...

[America Needs R'hllor]

I didn't think I would ever say it again, but at this point I'm glad to have Netanyahu at the helm. Under the Trump presidency it remains important to be cautious in taking any steps that would limit the number of options in the future. Annexing area C in its entirety would be the height of foolishness, and while I align ideologically with some of the people on the Likud right, they are manifestly unfit to lead the country. Perhaps I'm becoming more of a moderate, but I think Netanyahu is handling the relationship with the Trump administration the right way.

I'd agree a few months ago, but right now, Netanyahu is really unhinged, especially in foreign policy, because of his panic caused by the corruption allegations. I think he made an enemy of about three harmless countries including Mexico. But so far, even with Netanyahu's frantic leadership, I'm not scared of the Trump administration, there are way too many people (e.g., Kushner) who to prevent drastic steps against Israel.

[DavidB.]

True, his wall tweet was a mistake, especially in a time when Mexico slowly starts to become more friendly to Israel. I get where it's coming from and even appreciate the way in which he "plays" Trump, who is really receptive to this sort of thing, but it was a mistake. Israel needs to keep its options open and not increase its dependency on the U.S. Trump may be gone four years from now, while the consequences of the Israeli government's policies in both the domestic and the international realm will live on.

I still wouldn't call Netanyahu unhinged, though that may absolutely change in a new election campaign (G-d forbid). But for now, I think Netanyahu may be the best in handling Israeli foreign policy. I don't rely on the Trump administration's positive attitude toward Israel, because ultimately the future lies in the hands of the Israeli political leadership (which is a pretty scary thought, because my trust in them is very low).

[Hnv1]

Yawn on the trump 2 states comment, I take his words with nothing but salt.

Back to party politics. All parties like JH/Likud/Labour/Meretz are getting ready for an election.
Some new groups in Likud gained some attention like the Liberals and the new Likudniks. Both plan on getting their men in. Herzog is recruiting a bundle of bland ex-generals to have a "right" looking list. Galon wants open primaries in Meretz, while Gilon and his gilonjugend are suddenly again after they got enough people in as convention delegates.

Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned

[Vosem]

Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned

Is this for certain? What groups are going to bring down the government? Or will Netanyahu call snap elections? Is he even likely to recontest?

EDIT: This is a semi-random question, but I don't see Tzipi Livni being offered as a choice for the Labor Party leadership. Is she likely to break off and run herself, maintain the Zionist Union alliance, or merge her party into Labor? Or leave politics? I was under the impression that the long-term goal of the formation of Zionist Union was so that Livni could maneuver herself into eventually becoming Labor party leader and a prime ministerial candidate once again. Sure, Livni's a tired has-been, but Amir Peretz seems like even more of a tired has-been, and all the polls include him as leadership potential. Why not Livni?

[America Needs R'hllor]

Yawn on the trump 2 states comment, I take his words with nothing but salt.

Back to party politics. All parties like JH/Likud/Labour/Meretz are getting ready for an election.
Some new groups in Likud gained some attention like the Liberals and the new Likudniks. Both plan on getting their men in. Herzog is recruiting a bundle of bland ex-generals to have a "right" looking list. Galon wants open primaries in Meretz, while Gilon and his gilonjugend are suddenly again after they got enough people in as convention delegates.

Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned

Do you think that Galon will be successful in her attempt? If not, I suspect Meretz is doomed. Galon might resign because of that, as she's putting everything on it.

[Hnv1]

Elections coming this fall. Stay tuned

Is this for certain? What groups are going to bring down the government? Or will Netanyahu call snap elections? Is he even likely to recontest?

Nothing is certain, but if all sides are getting ready for an election and diverting funds to prepare the reasonable thing to conclude is their estimation must be grounded. Bibi's internal political weakness is easy to spot, there's only so much he can do to please all his partners at once. I expect it to be like WW1 fast and random cause will make it all tumble