The Day After... Italy.

[Beet]

Apparently this passes for an austerity package today:

"The austerity package foresees 59.8bn euros in savings from a mixture of spending cuts and tax rises, with the aim of balancing the budget by 2014. Measures include:

-An increase in VAT, from 20% to 21%
-A freeze on public-sector salaries until 2014
-The retirement age for women in the private sector will gradually rise, from 60 in 2014 until it reaches 65 in 2026, the same age as for men
-Measures to fight tax evasion will be strengthened, including a limit of 2,500 euros on cash transactions
-There will be a special tax on the energy sector

Seriously?

I mean I figure when a politician says "pass this and I'll resign to all of your enjoyment" that you would expect something a little stronger than this. How about maybe:

-20% public sector layoffs?
-20% reduction in public employee pay
-Or adding 50-100 euro co-pays for hospital visits?

I mean at least some real austerity would be something. And we are supposed to expect that the countries are going to cut government spending when things get better? Please!

Well it's a first step. I don't think Mario Monti is coming in, in order to sit on his lap and do nothing further to reform the Italian economy and budget.

As to your proposals, whether they are effective or not depends on what the Italian budget is, no? In the case of Greece, they cut the public employees but the bigger problem was employees of government-owned enterprises, and even more than that, social security payments, so merely cutting the public employees was not sufficient.

Do you have a breakdown of the budget of the Italian republic?

[Wonkish1]

Apparently this passes for an austerity package today:

"The austerity package foresees 59.8bn euros in savings from a mixture of spending cuts and tax rises, with the aim of balancing the budget by 2014. Measures include:

-An increase in VAT, from 20% to 21%
-A freeze on public-sector salaries until 2014
-The retirement age for women in the private sector will gradually rise, from 60 in 2014 until it reaches 65 in 2026, the same age as for men
-Measures to fight tax evasion will be strengthened, including a limit of 2,500 euros on cash transactions
-There will be a special tax on the energy sector

Seriously?

I mean I figure when a politician says "pass this and I'll resign to all of your enjoyment" that you would expect something a little stronger than this. How about maybe:

-20% public sector layoffs?
-20% reduction in public employee pay
-Or adding 50-100 euro co-pays for hospital visits?

I mean at least some real austerity would be something. And we are supposed to expect that the countries are going to cut government spending when things get better? Please!

Tax evasion in Greece is a major part of why they are in the predicament they are in.  If the wealthy paid taxes at the same rate that public sector employees do that would certainly help.  It makes no sense to implement austerity measures on the people who have been dutifully paying taxes all this time while the wealthy who are the biggest evaders are given a free pass.  If you take that into consideration those riots you have been seeing on TV might make a little more sense.

I guess you have problems reading because that austerity package isn't for Greece its for Italy! Beet and Italianboy figured that out, but gee who would have guessed that you wouldn't figure that out?

[Wonkish1]

Apparently this passes for an austerity package today:

"The austerity package foresees 59.8bn euros in savings from a mixture of spending cuts and tax rises, with the aim of balancing the budget by 2014. Measures include:

-An increase in VAT, from 20% to 21%
-A freeze on public-sector salaries until 2014
-The retirement age for women in the private sector will gradually rise, from 60 in 2014 until it reaches 65 in 2026, the same age as for men
-Measures to fight tax evasion will be strengthened, including a limit of 2,500 euros on cash transactions
-There will be a special tax on the energy sector

Seriously?

I mean I figure when a politician says "pass this and I'll resign to all of your enjoyment" that you would expect something a little stronger than this. How about maybe:

-20% public sector layoffs?
-20% reduction in public employee pay
-Or adding 50-100 euro co-pays for hospital visits?

I mean at least some real austerity would be something. And we are supposed to expect that the countries are going to cut government spending when things get better? Please!

Well it's a first step. I don't think Mario Monti is coming in, in order to sit on his lap and do nothing further to reform the Italian economy and budget.

As to your proposals, whether they are effective or not depends on what the Italian budget is, no? In the case of Greece, they cut the public employees but the bigger problem was employees of government-owned enterprises, and even more than that, social security payments, so merely cutting the public employees was not sufficient.

Do you have a breakdown of the budget of the Italian republic?

Fair enough, but you can see that I was just making a point about how laughable this "austerity package" is. I didn't give those as examples of the *best* options by a long shot.

[Link]

Apparently this passes for an austerity package today:

"The austerity package foresees 59.8bn euros in savings from a mixture of spending cuts and tax rises, with the aim of balancing the budget by 2014. Measures include:

-An increase in VAT, from 20% to 21%
-A freeze on public-sector salaries until 2014
-The retirement age for women in the private sector will gradually rise, from 60 in 2014 until it reaches 65 in 2026, the same age as for men
-Measures to fight tax evasion will be strengthened, including a limit of 2,500 euros on cash transactions
-There will be a special tax on the energy sector

Seriously?

I mean I figure when a politician says "pass this and I'll resign to all of your enjoyment" that you would expect something a little stronger than this. How about maybe:

-20% public sector layoffs?
-20% reduction in public employee pay
-Or adding 50-100 euro co-pays for hospital visits?

I mean at least some real austerity would be something. And we are supposed to expect that the countries are going to cut government spending when things get better? Please!

Tax evasion in Greece is a major part of why they are in the predicament they are in.  If the wealthy paid taxes at the same rate that public sector employees do that would certainly help.  It makes no sense to implement austerity measures on the people who have been dutifully paying taxes all this time while the wealthy who are the biggest evaders are given a free pass.  If you take that into consideration those riots you have been seeing on TV might make a little more sense.

I guess you have problems reading because that austerity package isn't for Greece its for Italy! Beet and Italianboy figured that out, but gee who would have guessed that you wouldn't figure that out?

Does tax evasion mean something different in Italian?  You do realize it is okay if there are similarities between financial reforms in different countries?

[Gustaf]

Apparently this passes for an austerity package today:

"The austerity package foresees 59.8bn euros in savings from a mixture of spending cuts and tax rises, with the aim of balancing the budget by 2014. Measures include:

-An increase in VAT, from 20% to 21%
-A freeze on public-sector salaries until 2014
-The retirement age for women in the private sector will gradually rise, from 60 in 2014 until it reaches 65 in 2026, the same age as for men
-Measures to fight tax evasion will be strengthened, including a limit of 2,500 euros on cash transactions
-There will be a special tax on the energy sector

Seriously?

I mean I figure when a politician says "pass this and I'll resign to all of your enjoyment" that you would expect something a little stronger than this. How about maybe:

-20% public sector layoffs?
-20% reduction in public employee pay
-Or adding 50-100 euro co-pays for hospital visits?

I mean at least some real austerity would be something. And we are supposed to expect that the countries are going to cut government spending when things get better? Please!

Tax evasion in Greece is a major part of why they are in the predicament they are in.  If the wealthy paid taxes at the same rate that public sector employees do that would certainly help.  It makes no sense to implement austerity measures on the people who have been dutifully paying taxes all this time while the wealthy who are the biggest evaders are given a free pass.  If you take that into consideration those riots you have been seeing on TV might make a little more sense.

I guess you have problems reading because that austerity package isn't for Greece its for Italy! Beet and Italianboy figured that out, but gee who would have guessed that you wouldn't figure that out?

Does tax evasion mean something different in Italian?  You do realize it is okay if there are similarities between financial reforms in different countries?

You really can't admit making a mistake, can you? You explicitly said that that the tax evasion was the main reason why Greece was in their predicament. You gave no reason for believing that the same is true for Italy.

[Link]

You really can't admit making a mistake, can you? You explicitly said that that the tax evasion was the main reason why Greece was in their predicament. You gave no reason for believing that the same is true for Italy.

Cracking down on tax evasion is but one reform.  I do not know to what degree it plays are role in Italy's current woe's but in a country that gave us the mafia I have to imagine it will do some good.  I do not think that is unreasonable.

By the way Gustaf the thread is titled Italy and my post clearly says Greece.  Where exactly is the confusion?

[Gustaf]

You really can't admit making a mistake, can you? You explicitly said that that the tax evasion was the main reason why Greece was in their predicament. You gave no reason for believing that the same is true for Italy.

Cracking down on tax evasion is but one reform.  I do not know to what degree it plays are role in Italy's current woe's but in a country that gave us the mafia I have to imagine it will do some good.  I do not think that is unreasonable.

By the way Gustaf the thread is titled Italy and my post clearly says Greece.  Where exactly is the confusion?

So...why did you lecture someone talking about Italy with evidence from Greece then? That doesn't make much sense?

[Wonkish1]

You really can't admit making a mistake, can you? You explicitly said that that the tax evasion was the main reason why Greece was in their predicament. You gave no reason for believing that the same is true for Italy.

Cracking down on tax evasion is but one reform.  I do not know to what degree it plays are role in Italy's current woe's but in a country that gave us the mafia I have to imagine it will do some good.  I do not think that is unreasonable.

By the way Gustaf the thread is titled Italy and my post clearly says Greece.  Where exactly is the confusion?

So...why did you lecture someone talking about Italy with evidence from Greece then? That doesn't make much sense?

Because he does it all of the time. He shoots his mouth off on something he doesn't have a clue about then gets into trouble and doesn't take responsibility for it. How Link isn't a *complete and universal* joke(as opposed to just a joke) on these forums already I have no idea.

[Link]

You really can't admit making a mistake, can you? You explicitly said that that the tax evasion was the main reason why Greece was in their predicament. You gave no reason for believing that the same is true for Italy.

Cracking down on tax evasion is but one reform.  I do not know to what degree it plays are role in Italy's current woe's but in a country that gave us the mafia I have to imagine it will do some good.  I do not think that is unreasonable.

By the way Gustaf the thread is titled Italy and my post clearly says Greece.  Where exactly is the confusion?

So...why did you lecture someone talking about Italy with evidence from Greece then? That doesn't make much sense?

Because he does it all of the time. He shoots his mouth off on something he doesn't have a clue about then gets into trouble and doesn't take responsibility for it. How Link isn't a *complete and universal* joke(as opposed to just a joke) on these forums already I have no idea.

Disagreeing with Wonkish1=shooting your mouth off on something you don't have a clue about

[Link]

You really can't admit making a mistake, can you? You explicitly said that that the tax evasion was the main reason why Greece was in their predicament. You gave no reason for believing that the same is true for Italy.

Cracking down on tax evasion is but one reform.  I do not know to what degree it plays are role in Italy's current woe's but in a country that gave us the mafia I have to imagine it will do some good.  I do not think that is unreasonable.

By the way Gustaf the thread is titled Italy and my post clearly says Greece.  Where exactly is the confusion?

So...why did you lecture someone talking about Italy with evidence from Greece then? That doesn't make much sense?

Sometimes things that happen in Greece may also occur in Italy.  Some have proposed they may even happen in the United States...



It doesn't necessarily make the countries 100% analogous, but when I pick out one reform and suggest it may have merit I don't think that is a reason for you to come unglued.  Just present your evidence showing that it is in no way analogous and doesn't happen in Italy and we will move on.

[Wonkish1]

Disagreeing with Wonkish1=shooting your mouth off on something you don't have a clue about

This is so funny you got caught red handed not even knowing which country I was referring to and now you can't even admit it. Your just making yourself look like a bigger hack and a liar every time you post.


This is definitely not the first time either. You've done it numerous times in the past. Remember this one: http://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=141747.30? You got caught not even understanding that I was criticizing people in my own party and then acted like it was me that changed positions. That was I believe the first of numerous times you've embarrassed the he!! out of yourself on here.

Keep digging buddy!

[Beet]

Apparently this passes for an austerity package today:

"The austerity package foresees 59.8bn euros in savings from a mixture of spending cuts and tax rises, with the aim of balancing the budget by 2014. Measures include:

-An increase in VAT, from 20% to 21%
-A freeze on public-sector salaries until 2014
-The retirement age for women in the private sector will gradually rise, from 60 in 2014 until it reaches 65 in 2026, the same age as for men
-Measures to fight tax evasion will be strengthened, including a limit of 2,500 euros on cash transactions
-There will be a special tax on the energy sector

Seriously?

I mean I figure when a politician says "pass this and I'll resign to all of your enjoyment" that you would expect something a little stronger than this. How about maybe:

-20% public sector layoffs?
-20% reduction in public employee pay
-Or adding 50-100 euro co-pays for hospital visits?

I mean at least some real austerity would be something. And we are supposed to expect that the countries are going to cut government spending when things get better? Please!

Well it's a first step. I don't think Mario Monti is coming in, in order to sit on his lap and do nothing further to reform the Italian economy and budget.

As to your proposals, whether they are effective or not depends on what the Italian budget is, no? In the case of Greece, they cut the public employees but the bigger problem was employees of government-owned enterprises, and even more than that, social security payments, so merely cutting the public employees was not sufficient.

Do you have a breakdown of the budget of the Italian republic?

Fair enough, but you can see that I was just making a point about how laughable this "austerity package" is. I didn't give those as examples of the *best* options by a long shot.

That wasn't a rhetorical question. You seem to have a lot of detailed information about this stuff. Does anyone here have a link to an English language Italian budget?

[Wonkish1]

That wasn't a rhetorical question. You seem to have a lot of detailed information about this stuff. Does anyone here have a link to an English language Italian budget?

I may have a decent amount of detailed information, but everybody's got their limits. I've never seen what the Italian budget looks like. I could probably guess what a few areas look like, but I'm not positive. Since I know that most of Italian police are national police not local police if that is true in other public functions I bet that their is a lot of payroll in the Italian budget relative to other countries(a lot of payroll shows up in other countries in local budgets and 'aid to so and so' locality shows up on the federal budget).

But other than that I bet your guess is as good as mine.

[Beet]

I found some national accounts information here.

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SNA_TABLE11

It seems fairly standard. A quick glance at the broad line items nothing particularly jumps out at me. It's not clear what "general public services" consists of, however.

[Link]

Disagreeing with Wonkish1=shooting your mouth off on something you don't have a clue about

This is so funny you got caught red handed not even knowing which country I was referring to and now you can't even admit it. Your just making yourself look like a bigger hack and a liar every time you post.

My post quite clearly says Greece in bold letters.   If you choose not to read that I can't help.  What I have noticed is that you have not offered any evidence to refute the assertion that perhaps cracking down on tax evasion in Italy is not a bad idea.  Your unwillingness in multiple posts to address this point tells me that it has some merit.  You can type as many belligerent posts calling people stupid and idiots as you want.  That isn't debating.

[Wonkish1]

My post quite clearly says Greece in bold letters.   If you choose not to read that I can't help.  What I have noticed is that you have not offered any evidence to refute the assertion that perhaps cracking down on tax evasion in Italy is not a bad idea.  Your unwillingness in multiple posts to address this point tells me that it has some merit.  You can type as many belligerent posts calling people stupid and idiots as you want.  That isn't debating.

I don't care if its a good or bad idea! The point is that you thought I posted the austerity package of Greece not Italy, and now your lying to cover it up just like you always do. You are a liar and a hack and every time you post on here without admitting that you mistakenly thought that package was Greece's you dig yourself into a bigger and bigger hole and make yourself out to a bigger and bigger liar and hack.


As to the tax evasion proposals they're probably not going to do much for 2 reasons. 1) The real money is in accumulated tax evasion from the past, but people  don't keep the amount of money they committed tax evasion with around they treat it like its theirs(obviously) so most times if you find it they don't have the money to pay. 2) Limiting cash transactions to 2,500 euros I doubt will net much because most tax evasion in Europe and the US occurs for small things such as: server cash tips(US), lawn care and handyman stuff, taxi's and transportation, etc. While a 2,500 euro limit will cut back on transactions where 1 party doesn't know the problem is that it will do nothing to affect transactions where both parties are okay with tax evasion.

^^This answer still has nothing to do with the fact that you are a liar and hack who wont admit that you thought that austerity package was for Greece.

[Link]

The point is that you thought...

I don't know who appointed you the final arbiter on everything connected to this forum.  Due to lack of clarity I have had my posts misinterpreted and I have misinterpreted other people's posts.  What I have never seen is when there is a simple misunderstanding anyone doggedly go after another person claiming to know what they actually meant and calling them a liar.  There are times I have misinterpreted other people's posts and jumped all over them and when it was pointed out I apologized.  Other times I have asked for clarification prior to jumping all over them.  Sometimes I have asked three or four times until they finally unambiguously say exactly what they meant.  I do not then call them liars.  Frankly this is the first time I have seen this type of extreme behavior, but sadly I know it won't be the last.

[Wonkish1]

I found some national accounts information here.

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SNA_TABLE11

It seems fairly standard. A quick glance at the broad line items nothing particularly jumps out at me. It's not clear what "general public services" consists of, however.

Some observations here!
1) If you use general government its total government expenditure on there with states, provinces, municipalities, etc. added in(that is why you don't see differences between countries that have particular services handled locally vs. nationally)
2) Once you click 'central government' only then you start to see where the problems are relative to other countries. As I guessed before their public payroll is really high relative to other countries(I used Belgium, Denmark, and Spain and didn't count social security funds) Italy has over 20%, Belgium is 4%, Denmark is 12% and Spain is about 11%.
3) Just like most countries its the social security system that is really a huge chunk of the central budget(since its the federal government that takes care of it you have to add central and social security together). Its about 50% in Italy, its about 50% in France, its about 40% in Belgium, its 18% in Sweden, and 32% in the US.

[Wonkish1]

The point is that you thought...

I don't know who appointed you the final arbiter on everything connected to this forum.  Due to lack of clarity I have had my posts misinterpreted and I have misinterpreted other people's posts.  What I have never seen is when there is a simple misunderstanding anyone doggedly go after another person claiming to know what they actually meant and calling them a liar.  There are times I have misinterpreted other people's posts and jumped all over them and when it was pointed out I apologized.  Other times I have asked for clarification prior to jumping all over them.  Sometimes I have asked three or four times until they finally unambiguously say exactly what they meant.  I do not then call them liars.  Frankly this is the first time I have seen this type of extreme behavior, but sadly I know it won't be the last.

What crap! I'm not going after you for making a mistake! I'm going after you because you never admit it you just continue along trying to BS your way through so that you never have to admit you were wrong! When I make a mistake I admit it. Remember when I made a mistake about the corporate tax revenue in Ireland and admitted that it was mistake? What did you do, you remember? You turned into a d*ck and tried to null and void everything I had ever said on the topic because I recollected the Irish total revenues as the corporate ones. You think that is how your supposed to treat someone that admits a mistake(to rub it in their face and blow it up)?

Your emphasis is completely wrong! The key is to admit mistakes when you make them and the other side should be gracious enough to accept them as mistakes and move on. You instead never admit mistakes and then turn into a d*ck when someone else admits a mistake to you.

[Wonkish1]

If you would have just said "Oops my mistake, but who's to say this isn't an issue in Italy as well" I would have left you alone. But instead you try to act like you didn't make one so now I'm going after you for being a liar unwilling to admit any mistakes!

[Insula Dei]

If you would have just said "Oops my mistake, but who's to say this isn't an issue in Italy as well" I would have left you alone. But instead you try to act like you didn't make one so now I'm going after you for being a liar unwilling to admit any mistakes!

Oh, the irony.

[Wonkish1]

If you would have just said "Oops my mistake, but who's to say this isn't an issue in Italy as well" I would have left you alone. But instead you try to act like you didn't make one so now I'm going after you for being a liar unwilling to admit any mistakes!

Oh, the irony.

Really how so?

[Link]

You instead never admit mistakes and then turn into a d*ck when someone else admits a mistake to you.

1) The thread you linked to quite clearly has me saying I'm sorry to you.

2) You need to take it easy on calling people on this forum "d*cks."  I'm not the one that continually goes into profanity laced tirades and calls other forum posters "stupid" and "idiots."

3) There are other people that would like to enjoy the economics forum.  Everything that can be politely said on this topic has been said.  I have nothing further to add.  Until the next misunderstanding... Adieu.

[Wonkish1]

You instead never admit mistakes and then turn into a d*ck when someone else admits a mistake to you.

1) The thread you linked to quite clearly has me saying I'm sorry to you.

2) You need to take it easy on calling people on this forum "d*cks."  I'm not the one that continually goes into profanity laced tirades and calls other forum posters "stupid" and "idiots."

3) There are other people that would like to enjoy the economics forum.  Everything that can be politely said on this topic has been said.  I have nothing further to add.  Until the next misunderstanding... Adieu.

1) Nice apology you also blamed me for the misunderstanding by incorrectly saying that I had "180ed"

2) Fair enough, but you'll also notice that there are a large number of people on these forums(including tons of Democrats) that I treat politely and a small group of about 7-8 people that I frequently slap around because they are posting things that deserve it.

3) Well if you don't want to go through this again and again I'll point out the 3 things that if you didn't do these types of things wouldn't be so common.
-When you don't know much about a topic just post your link and say "How would you respond to this" and I'll do so. But when you post something about a topic you don't know much about and say the other person is wrong using a link you don't understand then your inviting embarrassment for yourself and ridicule from me.
-When you make a mistake admit it and move on

[Wonkish1]

I found some national accounts information here.

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=SNA_TABLE11

It seems fairly standard. A quick glance at the broad line items nothing particularly jumps out at me. It's not clear what "general public services" consists of, however.

Some observations here!
1) If you use general government its total government expenditure on there with states, provinces, municipalities, etc. added in(that is why you don't see differences between countries that have particular services handled locally vs. nationally)
2) Once you click 'central government' only then you start to see where the problems are relative to other countries. As I guessed before their public payroll is really high relative to other countries(I used Belgium, Denmark, and Spain and didn't count social security funds) Italy has over 20%, Belgium is 4%, Denmark is 12% and Spain is about 11%.
3) Just like most countries its the social security system that is really a huge chunk of the central budget(since its the federal government that takes care of it you have to add central and social security together). Its about 50% in Italy, its about 50% in France, its about 40% in Belgium, its 18% in Sweden, and 32% in the US.

Beet, curious about your comments on this. At first I thought that "total" was just federal budget. Did you make the same error? Then I figured out that it combined federal, state, and local and then once you clicked 'central' you get just the federal budget(which is the issue when your talking Italian sovereign debt) you start seeing large differences between various countries.