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Author Topic: Breaking: United Kingdom Ejected from the EU!  (Read 1074 times)
Beet
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« on: November 05, 2011, 02:40:13 pm »
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http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20111103-707493.html

"BRUSSELS (Dow Jones)--Any nation that exits the euro zone must also leave the European Union, a European Commission spokeswoman said Thursday.

Karolina Kottova said the European Commission's interpretation of EU law remains that "the treaties don't foresee an exit from the euro zone" without a country also exiting the EU. The Commission, the EU's executive arm, is charged with acting as the guardian of the treaties."

</satire, of course>

But in all seriousness, this is absolutely INSANE because the EU is a fundamentally sound concept, whereas the euro is a fundamentally UNSOUND concept, at least with the present configuration of public opinion in Europe.
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ingemann
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2011, 02:55:36 pm »
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As UK like Denmark have a out-op to Euro-membership, this won't touch UK. Whether the Euro is a good or bad idea isn't the what this statement is about. It tells Greece that they're welcome to leave the Euro, but it means leaving EU too.

Beside I fail to see what's insane with enforcing on countries the treaties they have signed and enjoy the benefit of.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 02:57:21 pm by ingemann »Logged
Beet
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2011, 02:56:54 pm »
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As UK like Denmark have a out-op to Euro-membership, this won't touch UK. Whether the Euro is a good or bad idea isn't the what this statement is about. It tells Greece that they're welcome to leave the Euro, but it means leaving EU too.

It needlessly increases the price of leaving the euro, which is very bad if you think that leaving the euro is the right policy. And it's a transparent attempt to blackmail Greece.

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Beside I fail to see what's insane with enforcing on countries the treaties they have signed and enjoy the benefit of.

It's not 'enforcing' anything. The treaties don't foresee an exit from the euro zone, period. So by exiting the euro zone, Greece is already breaking the treaty. Kicking them out of the EU as well is unnecessary and needlessly damaging.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 03:02:55 pm by Beet »Logged

ingemann
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2011, 03:03:56 pm »
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As UK like Denmark have a out-op to Euro-membership, this won't touch UK. Whether the Euro is a good or bad idea isn't the what this statement is about. It tells Greece that they're welcome to leave the Euro, but it means leaving EU too.

It needlessly increases the price of leaving the euro, which is very bad if you think that leaving the euro is the right policy. And it's a transparent attempt to blackmail Greece.

No it's telling them there are no such things as a free lunch, they can freely leave the Euro, it just mean leaving EU too. You know this is the problem with the debate about the Euro on this site, that people only see it from some fundamentalist free market ideological POV, rather than as it is meant as; an instrument to increase the integration of the common citizen in the different EU countries and forcing responsable governance on the member countries.
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ingemann
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2011, 03:10:54 pm »
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Beside I fail to see what's insane with enforcing on countries the treaties they have signed and enjoy the benefit of.

It's not 'enforcing' anything. The treaties don't foresee an exit from the euro zone, period. So by exiting the euro zone, Greece is already breaking the treaty. Kicking them out of the EU as well is unnecessary and needlessly damaging.

So, they are used as an example, and it couldn't happen to a people deserving it more. Let us not forget the reason Greece are in sh**t to the neck are because several Greek government have commited fraud toward EU, to say nothing about the whole institutionalisation of tax fraud from the common Greeks side.
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ingemann
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2011, 03:19:26 pm »
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As UK like Denmark have a out-op to Euro-membership, this won't touch UK. Whether the Euro is a good or bad idea isn't the what this statement is about. It tells Greece that they're welcome to leave the Euro, but it means leaving EU too.

It needlessly increases the price of leaving the euro, which is very bad if you think that leaving the euro is the right policy. And it's a transparent attempt to blackmail Greece.

No it's telling them there are no such things as a free lunch, they can freely leave the Euro, it just mean leaving EU too. You know this is the problem with the debate about the Euro on this site, that people only see it from some fundamentalist free market ideological POV, rather than as it is meant as; an instrument to increase the integration of the common citizen in the different EU countries and forcing responsable governance on the member countries.

So now you've changed your tune from 'enforcing the treaty' to 'no such thing as a free lunch' -- except the entire euro project is a fatally flawed attempt at a 'free lunch'. The entire EU project is also a free lunch, only the difference is that it's not fatally flawed.

The problem with you Europeans that you're always contradicting yourselves. One moment you are talking about integration of the common citizens and forcing responsible governance, next moment you are talking about national sovereignty and opposing austerity and bailouts. Obviously I can't decide for you, but I can tell you which way you are currently headed, and it's a sovereign default without allowing the defaulting countries the escape valve of returning to a separate currency, which essentially means they'll have to undergo both a sovereign default and an internal devaluation, combined with comprehensive structural reform, imposed by the outside. Good luck with that.

Yes "I'm" mighty schizophrenic it's almost like "I'm" a transnational union with 500 million inhabitants who lack a common hive mind.
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Beet
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2011, 03:21:18 pm »
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I apologize for the tone of that last post. I tend to lash out way too much, like the Joe Pesci character in Goodfellas.
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2011, 04:28:24 pm »
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part of my 10am-3pm nightmare marathon today included a dream about a Greek military coup, backed by the West.
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2011, 04:40:06 pm »
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part of my 10am-3pm nightmare marathon today included a dream about a Greek military coup, backed by the West.

Well I'm never really against those, and anyway they often lead to better economic policy than the asinine neoliberalism that seems to inevitably follow from 'democracy'.

Where I'd like to see a military coup would be in germany, since Merkel is so stupid she doesn't know how to press 'PRINT'.
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Beet
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2011, 04:57:16 pm »
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Calling for a military coup is trolling, opebo. You've been reported.
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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2011, 05:06:21 pm »
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part of my 10am-3pm nightmare marathon today included a dream about a Greek military coup, backed by the West.

Well I'm never really against those, and anyway they often lead to better economic policy than the asinine neoliberalism that seems to inevitably follow from 'democracy'.

Where I'd like to see a military coup would be in germany, since Merkel is so stupid she doesn't know how to press 'PRINT'.
While not possible, removing her would certainly be more helpful than anything that could be done in Greece. And by anything I mean "anything".
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opebo
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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2011, 05:09:44 pm »
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Calling for a military coup is trolling, opebo. You've been reported.

Seriously?  You little twat.
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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2011, 06:33:03 pm »
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You know this is the problem with the debate about the Euro on this site, that people only see it from some fundamentalist free market ideological POV, rather than as it is meant as; an instrument to increase the integration of the common citizen in the different EU countries and forcing responsable governance on the member countries.

Here's the problem: It did not work. In fact, it failed spectacularly.

Furthermore, a central authority in Brussels trying to impose conformity upon the entirety of Europe is a bit too 1984ish for my liking. The Germans were practically guilt-tripped into accepting the Euro, and guilt is all that is keeping them from exiting the Eurozone, and the British/Swedes were smart enough to see what it would lead to (i.e., what is happening today and what will happen in the near-future as Beet spelled out).

The EU itself is a good concept if you think in terms of it representing a mechanism that enables the free movement of labor, capital, goods/services throughout the region. But like anything else, a good concept can be taken too far. Hence the Euro, attempting to enforce a single monetary policy upon an entire region of different cultures with different fiscal priorities, and so many of the protectionist measures implemented along the way (specifically, price controls/restrictions on agriculture; i.e., CAP).

The EU should probably find a way to shed the Euro and much of the bureaucracy/planning elements while keeping the free movement of labor, capital, goods, and services as its sole priority. The free movement of labor, capital, goods/services is all that is necessary to maintain a united and peaceful Europe, anyway. The bureaucracy/planning is the road to serfdom if it is taken much further.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 06:38:52 pm by Politico »Logged

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ingemann
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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2011, 08:12:07 pm »
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You know this is the problem with the debate about the Euro on this site, that people only see it from some fundamentalist free market ideological POV, rather than as it is meant as; an instrument to increase the integration of the common citizen in the different EU countries and forcing responsable governance on the member countries.

Here's the problem: It did not work. In fact, it failed spectacularly.

You know there this funny concept we call time, the Euro is ten year old, this is the first major crisis, and whether it has worked or not is something we can talk about when the crisis is over, and the Euro has survived or not.
 Until now the Euro has resulted in a improvement in governance in every Euro-country but Greece, Italy has never had as low annual deficits as now, Spain and Portugal for all their problems has a stronger economy than before the Euro.

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Furthermore, a central authority in Brussels trying to impose conformity upon the entirety of Europe is a bit too 1984ish for my liking. The Germans were practically guilt-tripped into accepting the Euro, and guilt is all that is keeping them from exiting the Eurozone, and the British/Swedes were smart enough to see what it would lead to (i.e., what is happening today and what will happen in the near-future as Beet spelled out).

No setting up cameras on every corner of the street is 1984ish, pushing a monetary union and common financial policies is federalism. EU is a voluntary association and have never hidden that its main goal was a united federated Europe. 1984 was a book about a totalitarian government which kept changing goalposters, spied on and abused its citizens. So let stop with our name dropping.

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The EU itself is a good concept if you think in terms of it representing a mechanism that enables the free movement of labor, capital, goods/services throughout the region. But like anything else, a good concept can be taken too far. Hence the Euro, attempting to enforce a single monetary policy upon an entire region of different cultures with different fiscal priorities, and so many of the protectionist measures implemented along the way (specifically, price controls/restrictions on agriculture; i.e., CAP).

As the agricultural subsidies is funded through EU, it has zero effect on the Eurozone, moreso USA show that you can have a large degree of regional regulation and still have a functional common currency.

Quote
The EU should probably find a way to shed the Euro and much of the bureaucracy/planning elements while keeping the free movement of labor, capital, goods, and services as its sole priority. The free movement of labor, capital, goods/services is all that is necessary to maintain a united and peaceful Europe, anyway. The bureaucracy/planning is the road to serfdom if it is taken much further.

No the road to serfdom is a overrated book by a overrated Austrian economist, whose ideological heirs are the major cause of the economical meltdown. The EU "enormous" bureaucracy push around 1% of EU's GDP, may be one of the most slim bureaucracies this world has known.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 08:18:23 pm by ingemann »Logged
Sibboleth
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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2011, 09:00:14 pm »
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It's certainly true that many of the things that people hate about the EU and blame on bureaucracy are actually the consequence of the free trade aspect of the union. Which everyone (even most people who hate the EU) supports. Which is amusing.
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2011, 09:03:51 pm »
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</satire, of course>

Please, don't try to beat The Roach's record on failed satire attempts, mmkay Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2011, 10:14:09 pm »

Calling for a military coup is trolling, opebo. You've been reported.

Fortunately, this is an empty threat, coming, as it is, from opebo Smiley)) Best ignored, imho Smiley))
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opebo
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« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2011, 11:54:37 am »
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Calling for a military coup is trolling, opebo. You've been reported.

Fortunately, this is an empty threat, coming, as it is, from opebo Smiley)) Best ignored, imho Smiley))

Well come on, ag, do you think any forum member is likely to be a serious threat of coup d'état in any country?
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ag
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« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2011, 03:30:13 pm »

Calling for a military coup is trolling, opebo. You've been reported.

Fortunately, this is an empty threat, coming, as it is, from opebo Smiley)) Best ignored, imho Smiley))

Well come on, ag, do you think any forum member is likely to be a serious threat of coup d'état in any country?

Of course not Smiley)) That's why you are still allowed to post here Smiley))
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Beet
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« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2011, 10:57:44 pm »
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part of my 10am-3pm nightmare marathon today included a dream about a Greek military coup, backed by the West.

Well I'm never really against those, and anyway they often lead to better economic policy than the asinine neoliberalism that seems to inevitably follow from 'democracy'.

Where I'd like to see a military coup would be in germany, since Merkel is so stupid she doesn't know how to press 'PRINT'.
While not possible, removing her would certainly be more helpful than anything that could be done in Greece. And by anything I mean "anything".

Incidentally, Lewis, what's your view of this whole thing?
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« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2011, 11:51:42 pm »
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Furthermore, a central authority in Brussels trying to impose conformity upon the entirety of Europe is a bit too 1984ish for my liking.

Can we please never compare anything to Nineteen Eighty-Four?
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« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2011, 02:42:10 pm »
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I'd say Beet is fundamentally correct. I think the costs definitely outweigh the benefits of EU membership at this point. The risks involved are way too high and most of the gains can be had through EES-membership anyway.
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« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2011, 03:13:23 pm »
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Seeing the title of this thread in partial form made me think that a great thread title for if Scotland ever went independent would be "Breaking: the United Kingdom."  Similarly, "Breaking: the European Union."
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