Why is faith healing getting popular amongst counterculture people and hipsters?

[ZuWo]

If you believe in Jesus there is every reason to believe that he can heal the sick. I certainly believe that Jesus can and does heal people, though there are numerous ways in which it can occur.

I'm wary of guys who claim they can heal the sick from all sorts of sufferings and become highly popular because of that. I believe many of the so called "faith healings" are based on a placebo effect. Furthermore, it seems to me that these "healers" often take a wrong approach anyway; they tell people to simply believe that they will be healed and it will happen more or less automatically and may neglect to give Jesus credit for a healing, invoking the impression that they are the ones who heal people. But it is clear that if Jesus is the son of God he does not depend on a human being to heal people, and that the power to heal people does not come from human beings, no matter how deep their faith is and how popular they are.

[So the Heroes Fall]

If you believe in Jesus there is every reason to believe that he can heal the sick. I certainly believe that Jesus can and does heal people, though there are numerous ways in which it can occur.

I'm wary of guys who claim they can heal the sick from all sorts of sufferings and become highly popular because of that. I believe many of the so called "faith healings" are based on a placebo effect. Furthermore, it seems to me that these "healers" often take a wrong approach anyway; they tell people to simply believe that they will be healed and it will happen more or less automatically and may neglect to give Jesus credit for a healing, invoking the impression that they are the ones who heal people. But it is clear that if Jesus is the son of God he does not depend on a human being to heal people, and that the power to heal people does not come from human beings, no matter how deep their faith is and how popular they are.

Yep, I agree with this. I never said I believed in Benny Hinn. So do you agree the guy in that video is a Freedom Fighter?

Yes, like a hardcore frontman speaking. It's not like they're going on a lecture tour or something and are well prepared. Also in my tradition of Christianity sermons are often given in this type of style too (I was just reminded of this time my pastor went on a weird tangent about how much he hates Dora the Explorer that his daughter watches all the time.)

Difference between charming, distracted anecdotes and "uhh does this guy understand the logic behind the things he is saying?"  Then again, when your comparison point is sermons, I'm going to have to say you're setting the bar not where I want it to be.

No I've heard sermons that are basically the same way and that you'd probably have the same attitude toward. One was actually given by a guy wearing ripped jeans and a Jawbreaker shirt.

And Alcon, you go to realize that this guy is so charismatic that I bet if at a show he ever brought out cups of poisoned kool-aid he could probably get most of the kids in attendance to drink it.

Well he appeared to be so in the video, we don't know what happened after that. But as I've said earlier, I've talked to people at my church and in my progressive Christian group that claim that this type of thing did put an end to pain from their injuries or illness they were suffering from.

Sooo if scientific study shows that the incidence of relapse after faith healing is comparable to the incidence of relapse after placebos, you're on board with this being probable bullsh**t?

Because surely you know how you're looking at this now involves about the worst kind of statistical sample (non-random, response bias, no control/controls, insufficient duration of study) possible for this kind of thing.

Well you got to realize that no one I'm talking to states that it always works is comparable to medicine in that sense. Just that it most certainly can work.

Something I noticed a few weeks ago by the way when I was having some back pain is it always went away when I was at church....

[afleitch]

Something I noticed a few weeks ago by the way when I was having some back pain is it always went away when I was at church....

In short, you'll now start to believe anything if it's demonstrated in your church because that's the sort of person you are; gullible and easily led and wanting to 'fit in' (some hipster you are.... ) You are now, through threads like this trying to talk yourself around into believing in faith healing. What will it be next week I wonder?

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

Well he appeared to be so in the video, we don't know what happened after that. But as I've said earlier, I've talked to people at my church and in my progressive Christian group that claim that this type of thing did put an end to pain from their injuries or illness they were suffering from.

Sooo if scientific study shows that the incidence of relapse after faith healing is comparable to the incidence of relapse after placebos, you're on board with this being probable bullsh**t?

Because surely you know how you're looking at this now involves about the worst kind of statistical sample (non-random, response bias, no control/controls, insufficient duration of study) possible for this kind of thing.

Well you got to realize that no one I'm talking to states that it always works is comparable to medicine in that sense. Just that it most certainly can work.

And their evidence that it's more than a placebo is ...?

Something I noticed a few weeks ago by the way when I was having some back pain is it always went away when I was at church....

Do they have comfortable or ergonomically friendly chairs or pews?

[So the Heroes Fall]

Something I noticed a few weeks ago by the way when I was having some back pain is it always went away when I was at church....

In short, you'll now start to believe anything if it's demonstrated in your church because that's the sort of person you are; gullible and easily led and wanting to 'fit in' (some hipster you are.... ) You are now, through threads like this trying to talk yourself around into believing in faith healing. What will it be next week I wonder?

Well atheist 17-year old BRTD was the exact same way whenever it came to the "scene" (my philosophy of the time was based around that the people in the bands I listened to had all the answers and any beliefs or views I had that contradicted the majority of the people involved in my scene had to be eliminated and removed from my mind.) It's not uncommon in that scene and affects atheists just as much.

Well he appeared to be so in the video, we don't know what happened after that. But as I've said earlier, I've talked to people at my church and in my progressive Christian group that claim that this type of thing did put an end to pain from their injuries or illness they were suffering from.

Sooo if scientific study shows that the incidence of relapse after faith healing is comparable to the incidence of relapse after placebos, you're on board with this being probable bullsh**t?

Because surely you know how you're looking at this now involves about the worst kind of statistical sample (non-random, response bias, no control/controls, insufficient duration of study) possible for this kind of thing.

Well you got to realize that no one I'm talking to states that it always works is comparable to medicine in that sense. Just that it most certainly can work.

And their evidence that it's more than a placebo is ...?

Well when people were sharing personal stories at the service we had focusing on it one girl in the band talked about it sent her mother's cancer into remission. A placebo can't do that.

Something I noticed a few weeks ago by the way when I was having some back pain is it always went away when I was at church....

Do they have comfortable or ergonomically friendly chairs or pews?

Dibble, did you seriously think I'd ever go to a church with pews? LOL.

Their chairs are kind of normal and aren't movable but not exactly uncomfortable. I'm only sitting during the sermon though.

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

Well when people were sharing personal stories at the service we had focusing on it one girl in the band talked about it sent her mother's cancer into remission. A placebo can't do that.

1. Actually the placebo effect could have an effect on spontaneous remission. You have to understand that the placebo effect is a real thing, even if the placebo isn't doing anything in and of itself. The patient thinks they are getting real medicine that will help, which in turn changes their mood (relieve stress because they think they'll get better, etc.) which in turn helps their natural healing mechanisms take effect. It's for this reason that they administer placebos during drug trials - they have to show the medicine they are studying is better than a fake because people's perception that they are getting something real has a real effect on them.
2. People who don't use faith healing occasionally have spontaneous remission as well. Again, the body does have natural healing mechanisms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_remission

"In a carefully designed study on mammography it was found that 22% of all breast cancer cases underwent spontaneous regression."

So basically one in five cases of that kind of cancer have spontaneous remission - I see no reason to consider faith healing as having more than a placebo effect here. In fact, if faith healing were a real thing then shouldn't there be a higher rate of remission than that given the percentage of the population with faith?

Something I noticed a few weeks ago by the way when I was having some back pain is it always went away when I was at church....

Do they have comfortable or ergonomically friendly chairs or pews?

Dibble, did you seriously think I'd ever go to a church with pews? LOL.[/quote]

I figured some hipster churches might have pews so I included it, but I supposed I didn't think you were really so dumb as to consider whether or not to go to a particular church based on what kind of seating they had. It's a frikkin seat for crying out loud!

Their chairs are kind of normal and aren't movable but not exactly uncomfortable. I'm only sitting during the sermon though.

And are you uncomfortable in other chairs? Say your work one? Does your back pain get progressively worse through the work week, and feel better towards the end of the weekend?

[So the Heroes Fall]

Well when people were sharing personal stories at the service we had focusing on it one girl in the band talked about it sent her mother's cancer into remission. A placebo can't do that.

1. Actually the placebo effect could have an effect on spontaneous remission. You have to understand that the placebo effect is a real thing, even if the placebo isn't doing anything in and of itself. The patient thinks they are getting real medicine that will help, which in turn changes their mood (relieve stress because they think they'll get better, etc.) which in turn helps their natural healing mechanisms take effect. It's for this reason that they administer placebos during drug trials - they have to show the medicine they are studying is better than a fake because people's perception that they are getting something real has a real effect on them.
2. People who don't use faith healing occasionally have spontaneous remission as well. Again, the body does have natural healing mechanisms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_remission

"In a carefully designed study on mammography it was found that 22% of all breast cancer cases underwent spontaneous regression."

So basically one in five cases of that kind of cancer have spontaneous remission - I see no reason to consider faith healing as having more than a placebo effect here. In fact, if faith healing were a real thing then shouldn't there be a higher rate of remission than that given the percentage of the population with faith?

Well if that's the case then faith healing could be considered to have a beneficial effect regardless of the reason.

The people I talk to in to it aren't big on statistics or studies, especially as they note it won't always work. My pastor once talked about a guy who was running a blog where he would basically take prayer requests from people asked to rate their pain and then ask for updates which he posted, sometimes went down, sometimes did not. We're not talking about Benny Hinn here.

Something I noticed a few weeks ago by the way when I was having some back pain is it always went away when I was at church....

Do they have comfortable or ergonomically friendly chairs or pews?

Dibble, did you seriously think I'd ever go to a church with pews? LOL.

I figured some hipster churches might have pews so I included it, but I supposed I didn't think you were really so dumb as to consider whether or not to go to a particular church based on what kind of seating they had. It's a frikkin seat for crying out loud!

Well part of the whole deal with this type of church is they rarely have an actual church building, and if they are meeting in one it's a more established church that they're borrowing the space from. We share the building with a furniture leasing company, catering company and graphic design studio among others.

Their chairs are kind of normal and aren't movable but not exactly uncomfortable. I'm only sitting during the sermon though.

And are you uncomfortable in other chairs? Say your work one? Does your back pain get progressively worse through the work week, and feel better towards the end of the weekend?

I didn't feel it while I was sitting, but if I stood up and my back was stiff it could hurt then. But that did not happen at church. I work Tuesday through Saturday, so I'd actually be going to church at the BEGINNING of my weekend.

[republicanism]

First, stuff like that has always been popular among those people, as Al pointed out.

And the reason for that is, I think, that a part of the left took a turn into irrationalism in the 1970s.

While the traditional left believed (and believes) in the re-distribution of wealth and in social, economic and scientific progress to ensure a life in dignity for all people, the "new left" decided that your psyche is more important than the world around you, became more and more interested in exotic religions and esoteric, and decided that the right strategy to fight capitalism is to settle on the land with some friends and grow your own carrots.

That is, of course, reactionary. But is still labeled as "leftist" by most people.

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

Well if that's the case then faith healing could be considered to have a beneficial effect regardless of the reason.

It can be beneficial in the sense of placebos doing something, but there are a couple of big downsides:

1. There are people who take the whole 'faith' part of it so seriously that they use faith healing and end up forgoing real treatment for diseases where probability is not in favor of placebo alone helping them. There are people who have died earlier than they should have due to this. A placebo is not a substitute for real treatment.
2. There are people who use faith healing to con people out of their money. For example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BQKu0YP8Y

The people I talk to in to it aren't big on statistics or studies,

Obviously, but by now you should know better.

I didn't feel it while I was sitting, but if I stood up and my back was stiff it could hurt then. But that did not happen at church. I work Tuesday through Saturday, so I'd actually be going to church at the BEGINNING of my weekend.

Then that may be due to how you're sitting at work, or possibly because you're sitting that way for extended periods of time, whereas at church you're not sitting for so long.

[So the Heroes Fall]

Well if that's the case then faith healing could be considered to have a beneficial effect regardless of the reason.

It can be beneficial in the sense of placebos doing something, but there are a couple of big downsides:

1. There are people who take the whole 'faith' part of it so seriously that they use faith healing and end up forgoing real treatment for diseases where probability is not in favor of placebo alone helping them. There are people who have died earlier than they should have due to this. A placebo is not a substitute for real treatment.
2. There are people who use faith healing to con people out of their money. For example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BQKu0YP8Y

1. No one I have met advocates this.
2. Nor have they tried anything like that.

The people I talk to in to it aren't big on statistics or studies,

Obviously, but by now you should know better.

I think you missed the point.

I didn't feel it while I was sitting, but if I stood up and my back was stiff it could hurt then. But that did not happen at church. I work Tuesday through Saturday, so I'd actually be going to church at the BEGINNING of my weekend.

Then that may be due to how you're sitting at work, or possibly because you're sitting that way for extended periods of time, whereas at church you're not sitting for so long.

Maybe, but it's not happening now. This kind of reminds me of when people said my "happy endings" weren't real massages and any relief was placebo.

[So the Heroes Fall]

Some hipster is going to be driving BRTD to the emergency room in two weeks because he got bit by a snake at a ceremony.  What's next...prohibition?  well, they won't be going against drugs and drink, that's how they keep both girls in the scene.  What is the root of all evil to these people?  Hard work?  Cool people?  Suburbs?  Stages?

Actually I was thinking that snake handling is fine as long as it's a non-poisonous snake, you know how people with pet snakes often hold it around their shoulders and let it crawl around their arms and hands too? I think someone doing that during a sermon would actually be pretty cool.

[memphis]

We have a certain poster from OK, who insists he was healed by God, whenever he gets over an upset stomach or headache. Perhaps he is just an ironic hispter too.

[IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble]

1. No one I have met advocates this.
2. Nor have they tried anything like that.

The people I talk to in to it aren't big on statistics or studies,

Obviously, but by now you should know better.

I think you missed the point.

...
...
...

Words simply cannot describe how epically you fail.

[afleitch]

We have a certain poster from OK, who insists he was healed by God, whenever he gets over an upset stomach or headache. Perhaps he is just an ironic hispter too.

In answer to the question posed incidently the answer is 'no'; most hipsters are not into faith healing, most don't go to church. Posts like these are BRTD's attempts to justify why he attends the church and also demonstrates how he is trying to grapple with believeing in the hokum that his church displays in it's services. Which is what Vineyard does of course. Anyone who reads about it rather than bases his opinion on what people wear knows that it believes in faith healing and the use of 'spiritual gifts.'

Hopefully by the time BRTD is both old enough and embedded enough in his local church, he can be 'graduated' up into the more conservative Vineyard churches (yes, that happens) for the 'olds' where he will lap up ultra conservative ideology without batting an eyelid.

[So the Heroes Fall]

You know afleitch I found one of the intern's Facebook pages while browsing through people connected to its page, and according to the groups she belongs to she is pro-Obama and pro-gay marriage. I know it's just me and her there who are. What's even more interesting is in the upper left where it's listed that one of my Facebook friends "likes" it...and he is gay.

I think that while this stuff comes across as a bit strange that's part of the reason why the church's congregation is mostly youngs, because youngs don't really mind things that are a bit strange (Hell I know that a lot of the stuff that goes on at Dude Fest is a bit strange as well), and prefer it to the boring ritualism of more mainstream churches, which is what most of us were raised in. At least we don't believe the crackers and wine we serve turn into the Body and Blood of Christ.

[Grad Students are the Worst]

The people I talk to in to it aren't big on statistics or studies, especially as they note it won't always work. My pastor once talked about a guy who was running a blog where he would basically take prayer requests from people asked to rate their pain and then ask for updates which he posted, sometimes went down, sometimes did not. We're not talking about Benny Hinn here.

Why shouldn't they be big on statistics and studies?  Studies can prove if the method is superior to placebo.  Studies can indicate whether cancer goes into remission at unusually high rates, or whether telling people this has an exceptional benefit re: cancer is instead dangerous.  Studies can show whether or not prayer healing affects conditions that placebo cannot.  Why aren't they interested to find those out?

[afleitch]

You know afleitch I found one of the intern's Facebook pages while browsing through people connected to its page, and according to the groups she belongs to she is pro-Obama and pro-gay marriage. I know it's just me and her there who are. What's even more interesting is in the upper left where it's listed that one of my Facebook friends "likes" it...and he is gay.

I think that while this stuff comes across as a bit strange that's part of the reason why the church's congregation is mostly youngs, because youngs don't really mind things that are a bit strange (Hell I know that a lot of the stuff that goes on at Dude Fest is a bit strange as well), and prefer it to the boring ritualism of more mainstream churches, which is what most of us were raised in.

I'm not entirely unfamiliar with the concept of individual church members, even those involved with the church holding views contrary to the orthodoxy of a church. It happens alot. It would be like me saying that, based on my almost exclusively Catholic family that are very pro-gay, that it reflects on the Church. It doesn't. I still know what the Church stands for.

I still know what you're church stands for. In the links you posted to the pastors blog, again there's nothing 'affirming' about LGBT to be found. While it tries to be more respectful and understanding of sexuality, it still does not say that gay relationships in any hue are acceptable if they involve a sexual component. I have not found on that site an endorsment of gay marriage, civil unions or any other right. On the reading list is Andrew Marins book which again, tries to be 'nice' to LGBT in it's approach, still wishes for them to be chaste and does not affirm LGBT relationships. It is of course, part of the wider Vineyard movement which is known for it's financial support of and approval of 'ex gay' reparative therapy programmes.

Such churches do try to welcome gay people, but it is very rarely on fair terms. They still view gay acts as sinful. Ask your pastor if he welcomes the commitment that a loving gay, sexually active couple can make to each other and whether he considers it valid. If he does, I would shake his hand.

I deal with charismatic/pentacostalist churches alot. I know Vineyard churches alot, even those that claim to be progressive. I know what they say, and what they shy away from saying to keep people attending. I know people who went, got caught up in it and managed to get out.

What annoys me about you the most, is actually not the type of church you go to. It's why you go there; every aspect of your life has to revolve around youth subculture and music. But you're 27 mate: you're ages with me. Most people stopped making life decisions based on what's 'cool' when they were 16. I know people who are much younger than you or I who attend Episcopalian or Quaker services, are happy to simply listen to someone speak (or in Quaker services comtemplate in silence) on a Sunday, yet the night before were out clubbing or at a concert or relaxing with friends and listening to music. They don't need constant stimulus.

You're now wanting to believe in things that you never used to believe in just because they do it at your church. Doesn't matter what they say or what they preach or what they believe, as long as you get the right emotion, the right music and people wear the right clothes.

In the scale of things that's really really sad. There is nothing more sad than an old hipster.

[memphis]

Perhaps he should have said getting more popular. Going from 1% to 2% would fit that assertionm. Even then, has burden of proof and anecdotal does not count.

[So the Heroes Fall]

So afleitch would you be acting the same way toward a Minnesota claiming to support gay marriage? It wasn't any Vineyard church that mailed out anti-gay DVDs to every household in its diocese in Minnesota. Nor is it my church that is organizing committees connected to the Minnesota Family Council and National Organization for Marriage to organize campaigns to vote to ban gay marriage. I know not every Catholic supports that, but it's a pretty big double standard to give them a pass (after all if they donate they are still funding that) while rail against a church because some people might quietly support the ban there. Really it's a complete guilty by association thing similar to Obama and Jeremiah Wright.

Homosexuality in general is really just not a topic that comes up at my church, the only time I've ever heard it mentioned was in the context of speaking about bullying including anti-gay bullying, which obviously wasn't spoken of favorably. I've never linked to my pastor's blog and I don't even know if he has one, I linked to a different blog linked to the church's website which said that homosexuals should be accepted in the church. I'd be surprised to hear him speak out on an issue like that really since he as a rule avoids divisive issues like that, and the most political thing I've ever heard him say is that he found both the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street people pretty annoying and obnoxious and some statements vaguely critical of the Iraq and Afghan Wars and US foreign policy.

I find it kind of amusing you say you know what my church stands for when you have never been there and I'm the only person who has, or that I don't care what they preach when they rarely preach about anything besides very fuzzy young adult-centric stuff. The most recent sermon titles: Overcoming Life's Main Obstacle, Waiting For The Promise , Provided For Along The Way, Finding Your Place In The World , How To Pray For A Big Life, Blessings For Outsiders & Insiders. Not exactly very fire and brimstone-y. You think they'd be attracting progressive young urbanites if it was all fire and brimstone?

I have better things to do than be bored on a Sunday morning. Like I said, I'd prefer to see strange things being done than mindless participate in ritual. I went to a traditional Lutheran service a few weeks ago at my cousin's confirmation and was very bored and forgot how boring I usually found them (I actually haven't been to a traditional Lutheran service in quite awhile, just the more contemporary ones) While I have some respect for some of the "gay churches" here like St. Mark's Episcopal and Saint Paul Reformation Lutheran I know that I'd be quite bored going there and I'd probably stand out in dress. I'm not comfortable in such places just like I wouldn't be in a Southern Baptist Church. I am here. As stated before, most of the people attending my church are not from a charismatic background at all and certainly didn't grow up with stuff like faith healing. So why do we find it so appealing? As I said, young and progressive people tend not to mind things that might be a bit strange and I think that's a big factor. I know that if my lifelong Lutheran grandmother saw people praying for healing while laying hands and waving their hands in the air and jumping during worship songs she'd be incredibly creeped out and out of that church to never return. And she's quite a bit more conservative than me or plenty of the other people there and certainly not as supportive as gay marriage!

[Grad Students are the Worst]

BRTD,

So...your Church is "welcoming" to homosexuals, but won't outright endorse gay marriage, and its priests oftentimes send people toward gay self-help improvement stuff instead of saying it's OK to sex their partners?  Do I misunderstand?

I mean, even most young fundies I know are all about welcoming homosexuals to the church with love and all.  That's the standard line for most anti-gay marriage churches, I'd wager.

[So the Heroes Fall]

BRTD,

So...your Church is "welcoming" to homosexuals, but won't outright endorse gay marriage

That sounds about accurate, though they won't outright condemn it either. Like I said, such divisive issues tend to be avoided.

and its priests oftentimes send people toward gay self-help improvement stuff instead of saying it's OK to sex their partners?  Do I misunderstand?

We don't have priests.

If you mean pastors then no I've never heard of any pastor at my church advising someone to go to an "ex-gay" ministry type thing. afleitch is referring to the greater Vineyard Movement which spawned my church and which supposedly has done this. I can't find any evidence of this today and any searching on it and homosexuality only mentions that one of the founders was a closeted gay and that they did some of this type of thing in the 80s. The Vineyard Movement in the 80s though was just another charismatic evangelical association and was radically more conservative than it is today. The founder was a complementarian (basically a polite way of saying that he didn't believe women were fit for ministry and opposed female ordination), my church has female pastors, even the more conservative Vineyard ones today often do.

afleitch is correct in that many Vineyard churches are in fact extremely conservative, especially in the south. However the Vineyard Movement isn't really a denomination, most Vineyard churches consider themselves non-denominational and refer to themselves as such. It's just a very loose association of churches and has next to no control over what individual churches do or teach, in fact even though it runs a training institute this isn't really a "seminary" since it's only a two-year class that anyone can sign up and pastors of Vineyard churches aren't even required to go there. In fact the lead pastor has never been to any type of seminary, he has a bachelor's degree from a public university and was ordained as an associate pastor at a Vineyard church in Illinois before coming up here to found this church. We just ordained another associate pastor who has no religious education or training either, he was an intern before being promoted. If I wanted to be considered for ordination I'd just have to take an easy 3-class leadership course ran by the church itself, and then be accepted for an internship and then eventual ordination, no formal seminary education required.

So Vineyard churches run the spectrum from hardcore fire and brimstone fundamentalists to relaxed ones with mostly youthful and progressive congregations. The one in St. Paul is quite similar.

[Grad Students are the Worst]

Yes, "pastor" and not "priest."  Flu meds, sorry.

I'd be interesting to see what happens when you ask your pastor about gay marriage or practicing homosexuality.  You should go for it this weekend, or even better by email

(Also, unless your church has a blanket policy against all political involvement, neutrality on gay marriage is not very ballsy in Minneapolis.)

[So the Heroes Fall]

I never said it was ballsy. I just said they tend to be avoid divisive issues...which basically does mean staying out of political involvement. I know lots of Bethel University students go so there are no doubt people who are more conservative (though I've met plenty of rather progressive Bethel people recently, a surprisingly high amount), and we have a good amount of blacks and Asians too...on the other side I've seen an HRC bumper sticker in the parking lot. Considering just how divisive and destructive this issue has been to other churches lately trying to avoid it when there's an obvious divide is a pretty understandable position.

[Grad Students are the Worst]

I never said it was ballsy. I just said they tend to be avoid divisive issues...which basically does mean staying out of political involvement. I know lots of Bethel University students go so there are no doubt people who are more conservative (though I've met plenty of rather progressive Bethel people recently, a surprisingly high amount), and we have a good amount of blacks and Asians too...on the other side I've seen an HRC bumper sticker in the parking lot. Considering just how divisive and destructive this issue has been to other churches lately trying to avoid it when there's an obvious divide is a pretty understandable position.

ick.

you're picking hand-waving and cool t-shirts over principles.

I live in a considerably less liberal city and plenty of olds churches have had no problem with being supportive.

[So the Heroes Fall]

So is a pro-gay marriage Catholic picking family tradition or whatever over principles?