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| | |-+  SENATE BILL: The Recall of Senators Amendment (rejected)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: The Recall of Senators Amendment (rejected)  (Read 1530 times)
bgwah
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« on: November 10, 2011, 01:20:30 am »
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The Recall of Senators Amendment.
Article I, Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amending to include:

8: If 30% of a Senator's constituency signs a petition to recall their Senator(s) then the Secretary of Federal Elections shall open a voting booth for the recall election exactly two weeks after the petition obtains the needed amount of signatures. The recall elections shall follow the same procedures as the the general elections for each class of Senators. If the Secretary of Federal elections declares a recall election is to be held, any eligible citizen may declare their intention to be on the ballot up to 48 hours before the booth is open. Should the Senator(s) be recalled, the certified winner(s) of the election may swear in to take their seat in the senate immediately.  

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« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 04:56:41 am by bgwah »Logged

Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2011, 01:23:53 am »
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I feel like a recall should only be used in extreme situations, and 30% is an incredibly low bar to initiating a recall.

In most regions we're talking about a handful of people, really. I don't really love the idea of a handful of stubborn and highly motivated citizens basically initiating recall after recall. If a Senator needs to be recalled, it should be for good reason and only done if absolutely necessary. A much higher bar, in that case, should be used. 60% or so, let's say.

Then again, I'm not really sure we need recall mechanisms in place to begin with, though I admire the brainstorming.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2011, 01:25:11 am »
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I would also need a higher threshold as well, in order to support it.


Beyond that, I think it is a great idea.
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bgwah
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2011, 01:27:48 am »
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Also keep in mind the nature of STV elections... You only need 15-20% to get elected. I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of a smaller party being removed via recall after it wins an STV seat fair and square.

I will not consider supporting this bill unless it only applies to regional seats.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2011, 01:36:57 am »
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I propose an amendment (changes in bold):

Quote
The Recall of Senators Amendment.
Article I, Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amending to include:

8: After thirty days of a Class A Senator holding office, if 60% of the Class A Senator's constituency signs a petition to recall their Senator then the Secretary of Federal Elections shall open a voting booth for the recall election exactly two weeks after the petition obtains the needed amount of signatures. The recall elections shall follow the same procedures as the the general elections for each class of Senators. If the Secretary of Federal elections declares a recall election is to be held, any eligible citizen may declare their intention to be on the ballot up to 48 hours before the booth is open. Should the Senator be recalled, the certified winner of the election may swear in to take their seat in the senate immediately.
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bgwah
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 01:46:09 am »
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Does the sponsor accept the amendment as friendly?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 02:26:29 am »
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Looking forward to another amendment failure.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2011, 10:36:28 am »
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60% seems too high to me. If a majority of a Senator's constituents want him recalled, it seems fair to me to allow them to have their special election, regardless of how large that majority is. Why not set the threshold at that?
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Pope Kalwejt I of Northeast
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2011, 02:26:24 pm »
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Bgwah's concern about possible unfariness of smaller parties in at-large elections is valid.

I'd support this amendment, at least to see how it's working on regional level first.
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Duke
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2011, 06:26:15 pm »
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This bill is insane.
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Jbrase
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« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2011, 12:09:16 pm »
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I'd support raising the percentage a tad bit higher if you all feel its too low, but 60% seems too high. I do not accept as friendly.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2011, 05:00:18 pm »
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I'd support raising the percentage a tad bit higher if you all feel its too low, but 60% seems too high. I do not accept as friendly.
What about 50%?
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bgwah
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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2011, 06:14:58 pm »
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We are now voting on the following amendment. Please vote aye, nay, or abstain.

Quote
The Recall of Senators Amendment.
Article I, Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amending to include:

8: After thirty days of a Class A Senator holding office, if 60% of the Class A Senator's constituency signs a petition to recall their Senator then the Secretary of Federal Elections shall open a voting booth for the recall election exactly two weeks after the petition obtains the needed amount of signatures. The recall elections shall follow the same procedures as the the general elections for each class of Senators. If the Secretary of Federal elections declares a recall election is to be held, any eligible citizen may declare their intention to be on the ballot up to 48 hours before the booth is open. Should the Senator be recalled, the certified winner of the election may swear in to take their seat in the senate immediately.
[/quote]
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Mopsus
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« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2011, 06:55:39 pm »
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Nay
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2011, 07:05:38 pm »
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Aye.

Not sure I can really vote for a final version that's lower than that. As Bgwah and Kalwejt said, there's an STV/small parties problem with allowing recalls. I can't think of any other way to protect against that than this, especially since recalling a Senator should only be done in extraordinarily circumstances.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2011, 08:30:26 pm »
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Nay
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Pope Kalwejt I of Northeast
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« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2011, 08:48:27 pm »
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Nay

With 60% signing they want a Senator out, we may just very well declare seat vacant.

This is ridiculously high.
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bgwah
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« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2011, 09:24:50 pm »
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aye
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2011, 10:19:39 pm »
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Aye


The chance of risking an attempted power grab is too great to go much lower.


50 would be my abolute last line in the sand if this amendment fails.
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Jbrase
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« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2011, 02:06:03 am »
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nay
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BRTD
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« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2011, 01:23:56 am »
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Nay
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Duke
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« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2011, 01:40:49 pm »
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Aye

It' really scary to add a provision that if someone is dissatisfied with a senator, 30% of them can simple vote to recall them. 50% is as low as I can go. 60% is more ideal. 30% is just crazy. 
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bgwah
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2011, 12:53:48 am »
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With 4 ayes and 5 nays, the amendment has failed. Debate resumes.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2011, 02:03:11 pm »
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Quote from: The Recall of Senators Amendment
Article I, Section 4 of the Constitution is hereby amending to include:

8: After 30 days of a Class A Senator holding office, if 50% of the Class A Senator's constituency signs a petition to recall their Senator then the Secretary of Federal Elections shall open a voting booth for the recall election exactly two weeks after the petition obtains the needed amount of signatures. The recall elections shall follow the same procedures as the the general elections for each class of Senators. If the Secretary of Federal elections declares a recall election is to be held, any eligible citizen may declare their intention to be on the ballot up to 48 hours before the booth is open. Should the Senator be recalled, the certified winner of the election may swear in to take their seat in the Senate immediately.  

I offer the following amendment. All I did was take Marokai's amendment and reduce the petition requirement from 60% of a Senator's constituents to 50%.
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Duke
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2011, 02:07:17 pm »
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When we say constituents, what do we mean by that? People who voted for that candidate? Or 50% of the region's total population?
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