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April 20, 2014, 01:39:14 pm
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| | |-+  Ukraine Crisis
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Author Topic: Ukraine Crisis  (Read 32670 times)
Mr Bear, King of Animals
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« Reply #1225 on: April 17, 2014, 08:38:31 am »
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Then why deploy them in the first place?
Because a good chunk of the military's hierarchy has been purged and replaced by incompetents who have just been in office for a few weeks ? And they are morons ? Yes, Krutov, I'm pointing at you...
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"F**k you Lion, I'm the King !" Mr Bear

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« Reply #1226 on: April 17, 2014, 10:24:54 am »
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Jews in the Donetsk PR are being told to register and provide a list of all their property. Meanwhile WSJ's Paul Sonne reports from Putin's long presser that Putin said eastern Ukraine is historically part of Russia and made a lot of sympathetic noises about Yanukovych. Combined with the Russian media reports that Yanukovych will be back in Donetsk in 2 weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin militarily installed his puppet atop a puppet East Ukraine.
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« Reply #1227 on: April 17, 2014, 10:31:17 am »
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Canada will be sending 6 Hornets to Poland and 20 officers to NATO HQ.
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« Reply #1228 on: April 17, 2014, 11:00:30 am »
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Donetsk separatist leader denies responsibility for the leaflets but admits his organization was involved.
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« Reply #1229 on: April 17, 2014, 11:41:13 am »
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BBC reports Russia making calming statements about "de-escalation". This is really bad: this, probably, means invasion is going to happen really soon (whenever Puting says something seemingly informative, his intentions, usually, are exactly the opposite).
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« Reply #1230 on: April 17, 2014, 11:44:36 am »
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Lavrov says a "deal" has been reached to disarm all militias. Broad national dialogue and amnesty for separatists who didn't commit capital crimes. Russia's position hasn't changed: reorder the country as we like or we'll do it for you.
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« Reply #1231 on: April 17, 2014, 12:08:32 pm »
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No, that is not Russian position. Russian position is: Ukraine, for the moment, is Lviv; we might talk about Kiev - but we, probably, will not give up even that. Everything else is just to waste some more time.

Of course, once they get Kiev, they will go for Lviv as well.
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« Reply #1232 on: April 17, 2014, 12:10:37 pm »
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"Deal" confirmed by Kerry and Baroness Ashton.
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« Reply #1233 on: April 17, 2014, 04:29:10 pm »
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Welcome to Munich, ladies and gentlemen.

Get ready for what follows.
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AG Simfan
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« Reply #1234 on: April 17, 2014, 09:50:29 pm »
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Jews in the Donetsk PR are being told to register and provide a list of all their property. Meanwhile WSJ's Paul Sonne reports from Putin's long presser that Putin said eastern Ukraine is historically part of Russia and made a lot of sympathetic noises about Yanukovych. Combined with the Russian media reports that Yanukovych will be back in Donetsk in 2 weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin militarily installed his puppet atop a puppet East Ukraine.

I doubt this is actually happening.
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« Reply #1235 on: April 17, 2014, 10:03:50 pm »
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Jews in the Donetsk PR are being told to register and provide a list of all their property. Meanwhile WSJ's Paul Sonne reports from Putin's long presser that Putin said eastern Ukraine is historically part of Russia and made a lot of sympathetic noises about Yanukovych. Combined with the Russian media reports that Yanukovych will be back in Donetsk in 2 weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin militarily installed his puppet atop a puppet East Ukraine.

I doubt this is actually happening.

It's happening, but the odds are it's free agents causing trouble for the local Jews, rather than any organized persecution by the government.
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« Reply #1236 on: April 18, 2014, 12:34:32 am »
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Jews in the Donetsk PR are being told to register and provide a list of all their property. Meanwhile WSJ's Paul Sonne reports from Putin's long presser that Putin said eastern Ukraine is historically part of Russia and made a lot of sympathetic noises about Yanukovych. Combined with the Russian media reports that Yanukovych will be back in Donetsk in 2 weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin militarily installed his puppet atop a puppet East Ukraine.

I doubt this is actually happening.

It's happening, but the odds are it's free agents causing trouble for the local Jews, rather than any organized persecution by the government.

Sure. For the moment the Russian government is not doing anything against the Jews as such - as long as they are loyal. Not that it would find anything objectionable in killing Jews (or, for that matter, Russians) if it somehow were useful for whatever other objectives it establishes. At this point, though, it isn't, and in that sense Putin is no Hitler - killing Jews is not a primary objective of intrinsic value for him.
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« Reply #1237 on: April 18, 2014, 04:01:10 am »
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One does wonder how much in control the Russians actually are of the pro-Russian militants.
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« Reply #1238 on: April 18, 2014, 08:30:03 am »
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What would our response be if Russia sent troops to conquer the rest of Ukraine and Estonia?
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« Reply #1239 on: April 18, 2014, 08:32:43 am »
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It's hard to know what's really happening in Eastern Ukraine. Anyway, in this site you can find good articles:

http://theconversation.com/ukraine-clashes-raise-stakes-in-struggle-to-control-the-donbas-25772
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« Reply #1240 on: April 18, 2014, 09:40:00 am »
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I think, it is pretty safe to say, under pretty much complete control. Russian intelligence officers are deployed there in force. Make your own conclusions.
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True Federalist
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« Reply #1241 on: April 18, 2014, 11:14:07 am »
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I think, it is pretty safe to say, under pretty much complete control. Russian intelligence officers are deployed there in force. Make your own conclusions.

Problem is, those intelligence officers may have read more into their orders than they may have intended.  Even if they get privately punished later for doing so, the problem is Putin will likely find it impossible to undo they have done, since in order to do so he would effectively have to capitulate to the West.  However regardless of whether forces on the ground are exceeding their orders or they are following their orders, the effect is essentially the same.
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« Reply #1242 on: April 18, 2014, 11:32:23 am »
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I think, it is pretty safe to say, under pretty much complete control. Russian intelligence officers are deployed there in force. Make your own conclusions.

Problem is, those intelligence officers may have read more into their orders than they may have intended.  Even if they get privately punished later for doing so, the problem is Putin will likely find it impossible to undo they have done, since in order to do so he would effectively have to capitulate to the West.  However regardless of whether forces on the ground are exceeding their orders or they are following their orders, the effect is essentially the same.

I think, given the history of that gentleman, it is pretty safe to assume that the worst orders emanate directly from him (even if they are given in a way that makes them hard to trace). Thinking up any other theory is entirely unnecessary, as it would explain nothing that cannot be explained simply by assuming that Putin behaves as Putin normally does.

In particular, it is safe to assume that there is no promise, verbal or written, that Putin has not decided to violate exactly the moment before making that promise. That is his normal operating mode. So, if he promises you anything, you should assume that he is likely planning to do the opposite (if he has already decided on any course of action), or that his actions will be in no way constraint by the promise (if he has not).
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London Man
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« Reply #1243 on: April 18, 2014, 11:36:55 am »
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I think, it is pretty safe to say, under pretty much complete control. Russian intelligence officers are deployed there in force. Make your own conclusions.

Intelligence officers can be ignored or removed from the equation... sometimes permanently.
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« Reply #1244 on: April 18, 2014, 03:28:54 pm »
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I think, it is pretty safe to say, under pretty much complete control. Russian intelligence officers are deployed there in force. Make your own conclusions.

Intelligence officers can be ignored or removed from the equation... sometimes permanently.

There is exactly no evidence of that happening. And ample evidence that they are very much in control. In fact, it is going far beyond intelligence officers: a lot of the people on the ground are simply Russian soldiers pretty much in uniform, just without insignia. This is pretty much documented at this point. In fact, at least some of these people seem to be the same as in Crimea last month - they have been recognized.
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« Reply #1245 on: April 19, 2014, 10:49:27 am »
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US troops are being deployed to Poland.

Also, Russia's economy was apparently already deteriorating even before sanctions were imposed
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True Federalist
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« Reply #1246 on: April 19, 2014, 12:01:28 pm »
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That has been brought up before.  It's even entirely possible Putin has caused the crisis so as to give him an excuse for the economy once it becomes more apparent that it's gone bad.
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