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| | |-+  How Brazilís Libertarian Movement Helped Bring Down a President
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Author Topic: How Brazilís Libertarian Movement Helped Bring Down a President  (Read 1422 times)
I did not see L.A.
Antonio V
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2016, 01:46:08 am »
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lol
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"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

-- Ted Kennedy
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2016, 06:25:20 am »
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As if they simply popped into existence with 10 million members ready to go.

Of course not. First you had a Workers' Defense Committee and individual dissidents in the 60s and 70s.

Interestingly, Solidarity may be the worst possible comparision for any libertarian group, despite your valiant efforts to create one. Politically Solidarity became an anti-totalitarian movement, grouping people from the right as well as from the left. Economically, Solidarity's platform was noticealby more left-wing that the regime's. In fact during the Round Table, the regime side proposed quite conservative economic policies. The whole movement started as a protest against the government's economic policies.

Quote
Serious change starts with a few radicals that are viciously slandered by the rest of society. To act as though such movements spontaneously had widespread support is not only comical, it degrades the efforts of the few who shouldered most of the risk and those who fought and died to pave the way and up to that point were painted as "fascists" or "reactionaries" or "a few bourgeois elite rebels". The crimes of the regimes they oppose tend to only come out in great numbers after they've won.

And you're seriously comparing a group active in a democratic society as Brazil today with actual dissidents and martyrs in totalitarian countries?

Wow, talk about a delusions of grandeur.

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Stalin was getting praise from Western intellectuals while slaves built his canals and dissidents were getting killed at Katyn.

Actually, those were POWs that were murdered at Katyń, not Soviet dissidents.

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Trotsky was a murderer. Nevertheless, Trotskyites had their time in the sun, and that time was the 20s. Libertarians too will have a time in the sun, but our time is not in the past, but in the future.

Well, that's what libertarians were saying for decades now. Good luck, buddy/
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dead0man
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2016, 07:20:15 am »
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yeah, if you're not embracing, defending or making excuses for corrupt leftists then you're not part of the clique team!
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accept no imitations

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I did not see L.A.
Antonio V
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2016, 07:35:15 am »
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yeah, if you're not embracing, defending or making excuses for corrupt leftists then you're not part of the clique team!

And mildly corrupt leftists are just as bad as Stalin, of course.
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"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

-- Ted Kennedy
dead0man
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2016, 07:41:05 am »
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Obviously not.  And the people that make excuses, defend and embrace him are much worse than the people that do the same for the merely corrupt.  Still, kind of silly to do though....at least in my opinion.  I understand some people feel it's their duty to defend corrupt people, but only if they are wearing the same color shirt.
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I did not see L.A.
Antonio V
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2016, 07:46:48 am »
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Obviously not.  And the people that make excuses, defend and embrace him are much worse than the people that do the same for the merely corrupt.  Still, kind of silly to do though....at least in my opinion.  I understand some people feel it's their duty to defend corrupt people, but only if they are wearing the same color shirt.

Well, yes, I'll take the corrupt people who lifted millions of people out of poverty over the corrupt people who don't give a sh*t about 95% of the country they live in. Didn't think that would be a controversial position.
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"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

-- Ted Kennedy
ClintonianCake
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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2016, 08:05:28 am »
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Obviously not.  And the people that make excuses, defend and embrace him are much worse than the people that do the same for the merely corrupt.  Still, kind of silly to do though....at least in my opinion.  I understand some people feel it's their duty to defend corrupt people, but only if they are wearing the same color shirt.

Because I am not naive enough to think or demand the world operates on black and white terms.
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dead0man
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« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2016, 09:07:45 am »
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Yep, it's all grey!
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I did not see L.A.
Antonio V
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« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2016, 09:28:34 am »
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Yep, it's all grey!

You are an idiot.
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"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

-- Ted Kennedy
Intell
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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2016, 09:49:06 am »
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Because the shameless neo-liberal opposition, who ruin cause instability, because of MUH profit, are any better, you know what they're much more sh**t. Rouseff, who might be corrupt (and I don't really support her anyway), and Silva have instituted may anti-poverty program to help the poor of the country, that have been sh**t on, from the military dictatorship, and even from then. But of course 20-year or some, libertarians don't care, from their upper-middle class educated bubble, just because they don't have a perfect image of Brazil, that may have been ingrained into their mind, that's now being ruined by the socialists, due to who knows what, even if corruption was worse before.

But of course, if you get to have your business, and get our glossy new western pants, travel to America, get very good private education, and have your new Iphone and rich clothes, from top-brands, it's all good.

And I don't see how replacing someone, who has done some good, with someone much worse, when her opponets are much more corrupt, in a politically targeted attack for no reason is any good.

-Also Dilma Rouseff has 3.1 mill likes on Facebook
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 09:54:51 am by Intell »Logged

ClintonianCake
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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2016, 12:04:05 pm »
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Yep, it's all grey!



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« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2016, 12:57:58 pm »
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yeah, if you're not embracing, defending or making excuses for corrupt leftists then you're not part of the clique team!

Yes, and you guys are just as brave of dissident as those executed by Stalin.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2016, 01:06:39 pm »
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I'm not going to comment on Brazilian libertarianism, but I must note that Brazil suffers from excessive regulation. Take this article from the Atlantic

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Fernandes is one of those despachantesóa word which roughly translates as ďexpeditersĒóand he was helping me navigate the maze of Brazilian bureaucracy.

Snip

Despachantes like Fernandes are adept at maneuvering around local and federal red tape and have extensive government contacts at their disposal. Need to get a driverís license? A despachante can help. Need to buy a home? Hire a despachante. The amount of paperwork, personal documents, and agencies needed to authenticate forms for the most mundane transactions in Brazil is mind-boggling.

Snip

Aside from customs despachantes, government fixers are now involved in nearly every place private citizens meet the public sector. Regional despachante unions have grown so powerful that they will try to block any attempt to streamline government procedures,

Think about that for a second.

A union of people hired to deal with excessive government bureaucracy protesting attempts to make filing paperwork more accessible to the average worker. It's like something out of an Ayn Rand novel.

This is why I have trouble identifying with the economic lefty despite my sympathy for the welfare state. Opposition to nonsense like this tends to get derided with shouts of 'neoliberalism!'. A bureaucracy like the one noted above only serves to promote inequality and protect incumbents.
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Chickenhawk
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« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2016, 01:20:29 pm »
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Quote
Trotsky was a murderer. Nevertheless, Trotskyites had their time in the sun, and that time was the 20s. Libertarians too will have a time in the sun, but our time is not in the past, but in the future.

Well, that's what libertarians were saying for decades now. Good luck, buddy


Off topic, but fun item: I found a first edition copy of "Libertarianism, A Political Philosophy For Tomorrow," by Hospers at a used book store.

Publication date: 1970.

On the back "A political philosophy whose time has come!"

I had a good chuckle and bought it for three bucks.
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ďI believe this is wrongheaded and hope to live long enough to see the day when... Democrats begin to behave like winners, confident enough to welcome new leaders, new energy and new ideas. Sadly, it doesnít appear this will be the case in 2016.Ē

~Tom Sugar, D (IN)
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2016, 01:47:01 pm »
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Off topic, but fun item: I found a first edition copy of "Libertarianism, A Political Philosophy For Tomorrow," by Hospers at a used book store.

Publication date: 1970.

On the back "A political philosophy whose time has come!"

I had a good chuckle and bought it for three bucks.

Tomorrow belongs to me
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Signora Ophelia Maraschina, Mafia courtesan
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« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2016, 05:52:11 pm »
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Off topic, but fun item: I found a first edition copy of "Libertarianism, A Political Philosophy For Tomorrow," by Hospers at a used book store.

Publication date: 1970.

On the back "A political philosophy whose time has come!"

I had a good chuckle and bought it for three bucks.

Tomorrow belongs to me

I'm using a schoolwork account on my computer that I don't allow myself to use YouTube or social media on; is this by any chance the Spitting Image version?
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A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.
RodPresident
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« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2016, 11:00:28 pm »
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Free Brazil Movement (Movimento Brasil Livre, MBL) is one of biggest jokes that we have. Main spokesperson Kim Kataguiri sent a belfie when a left-wing internet news portal sent questions to him. Renan Santos, another MBL leader, has 65 lawsuits against him and his businesses. And they received money from anti-Dilma parties, including from Moreira Franco (former Rio de Janeiro governor and one of Temer top aides). They have strong connections with former Speaker Eduardo Cunha.
Revoltados Online, another anti-Dilma movement, is more of a business commanded by Marcelo Reis who is media-seeking with a pro-fascist rhetoric who wants to get money. He was married with Carla Zambelli, former Femen Brazil leader, founder of Nas Ruas. Another Femen Brazil leader Sara Winter joined Social Christian Party (Bolsonaro's party).
In time, Reverend Marco Feliciano (PSC-SP), one of main social conservatives in Congress is being accused of sex harassment and rape. His Chief of Staff was jailed today for trying to intimidate girl and tried to bribe her.
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Democracy in Brazil! Democracy in Turkey! With Lula and Erdogan!
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2016, 04:06:30 am »
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Off topic, but fun item: I found a first edition copy of "Libertarianism, A Political Philosophy For Tomorrow," by Hospers at a used book store.

Publication date: 1970.

On the back "A political philosophy whose time has come!"

I had a good chuckle and bought it for three bucks.

Tomorrow belongs to me

I'm using a schoolwork account on my computer that I don't allow myself to use YouTube or social media on; is this by any chance the Spitting Image version?

No, I was lazy and went with the original.
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seb_pard
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« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2016, 10:32:32 am »
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I don't really know anything about the brazilian libertarian movement (and honestly, I don't want to know) but I sadly know some libertarians from chile (and visited some spanish-speaking libertarian pages) and most of them are insufferable rich boys (like Axel Kaiser) but are interest in politics but most of them are weird boys, from middle class neighbourhoods who love anime, play a lot of video-games, are very misanthropic and they think they are experts on economy because they took Economy  101. Seeing their pages on facebook is an act of sacrifice, they love to attack everything (specially student leaders and feminists) and think is stupid to suggest that the state can solve some things and all people are lazy who like to complaint.

The good news there are not many (and are a laughingstock) but are very noisy and from RodPresident I'm relief that in Brazil is the same.
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Socialist from Chile, with a strong leaning to Liberation Theology.
IceAgeComing
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« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2016, 10:44:28 pm »
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Oi, please don't insult those of us who play a lot of vidya games; we aren't all libertarians!!!
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Derpist
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« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2016, 12:22:11 am »
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The reason behind the recession is the crippling of the China bubble, nothing more nothing less.

Quite possibly the worst economics-related post I've ever read on this site.
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Fuck you, fascist.

Fuck you, fascist.

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IceAgeComing
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« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2016, 12:31:09 pm »
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Generally when you say something that strongly, you'd at least attempt to justify your point.
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Bacon!
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« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2016, 03:14:42 pm »
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I don't really know anything about the brazilian libertarian movement (and honestly, I don't want to know) but I sadly know some libertarians from chile (and visited some spanish-speaking libertarian pages) and most of them are insufferable rich boys (like Axel Kaiser) but are interest in politics but most of them are weird boys, from middle class neighbourhoods who love anime, play a lot of video-games, are very misanthropic and they think they are experts on economy because they took Economy  101. Seeing their pages on facebook is an act of sacrifice, they love to attack everything (specially student leaders and feminists) and think is stupid to suggest that the state can solve some things and all people are lazy who like to complaint.

The good news there are not many (and are a laughingstock) but are very noisy and from RodPresident I'm relief that in Brazil is the same.

Not even just South America - you're describing all libertarians the world over!
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BK without all the crazy drugs just wouldn't be BK.
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