Israel and Palestine

[Gustaf]

I know, there is a lot of anti semitism out there, sickening really seeing what has happened.

Most anti-semitism in Europe comes from Muslim immgrants though...but there's more in CONTINENTAL Europe, MarkDel hardly exists among Swedes, I'm pretty sure.

[dunn]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

[MarkDel]

Dunn,

Great points.

[dunn]

Gus
17% of Italians - and Italy is not as bad as spain, France or Germany - said in a recent poll Israel don't have the right to exist.

[dunn]

Dunn,

Great points.

It's after 1am here but you made me stay and posting some good points...

[Gustaf]

Gustaf,

To give you an example, it wasn't all that long ago that the Swedish government took the Israeli Ambassador to Sweden to an art exhibit so he could see the glorification of Palestinian suicide bombers as heroic. And when the Israeli Ambassador expressed his anger and outrage, the Swedish press said it was another example of Zionist hatred, etc, etc...this is just one example...and it's FAR worse in places like France and Germany.

I am very curious to hear about how you know what the Swedish press wrote about, since I didn't know you knew Swedish...I didn't read anything about 'Zionist hatred' in 3 of the 5 existing national newspapers my family gets everyday...and the art exhibit did not have a direct link to the goverment, it was in a museum, the ambassador was invited to a conference.

Gustaf,

To be perfectly honest, I read US and British accounts of what took place, and they "paraphrased" some of the reporting from Sweden. Wasn't the exhibit held at a government sponsored museum and wasn't the Israeli Ambassador there per an invite?

The museum is sponsored by the government but I don't think they have any control of it. It was 1 exhibition, by one artist. I agree that it was bad taste to have it up, even though you might be intersted in hearing that the artist who constructed it is a Jew himself...I do however think that the ambassador did step over the line, even though I can understand his sentiment. It's possible now that you say it that he was invited to the exhibition...it had to do with the conference, but I'm not sure of the exact link.

[MarkDel]

I know, there is a lot of anti semitism out there, sickening really seeing what has happened.

Most anti-semitism in Europe comes from Muslim immgrants though...but there's more in CONTINENTAL Europe, MarkDel hardly exists among Swedes, I'm pretty sure.

Gustaf,

Well...I hope you're right...

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

[JohnFKennedy]

but many people agree with the Palestinian terrorists which is agreeing with terrorism which is just wrong, plain and simple.

[Gustaf]

I know, there is a lot of anti semitism out there, sickening really seeing what has happened.

Most anti-semitism in Europe comes from Muslim immgrants though...but there's more in CONTINENTAL Europe, MarkDel hardly exists among Swedes, I'm pretty sure.

Gustaf,

Well...I hope you're right...

I am. There's racism, mind you, in fact there's a lot of the paradoxal 'Dutch racism', but Sweden has never had a strong anti-semitism, not even in the 30s.

[dunn]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

No
Thet justify it, sometimes not call it terror

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

No
Thet justify it, sometimes not call it terror

Look here, I actually live here. VERY FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY SUPPORT TERRORISM! Even 17% is a small minority. Too big yes, but still a minority.

[MarkDel]

Dunn,

Yes, they rationalize the terror by calling people "insurgents" instead of terrorists...as just one example.

[Gustaf]

Dunn,

Yes, they rationalize the terror by calling people "insurgents" instead of terrorists...as just one example.

Well, I have never read about them being called that in a Swedish newspaper, that's for sure...in fact, of the 2 only national morning papers in Sweden, 1 has a conservative editorial which means REALLY pro-Israel and the other is liberal which mean REALLY, REALLY pro-Israel...

[dunn]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

No
Thet justify it, sometimes not call it terror

Look here, I actually live here. VERY FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY SUPPORT TERRORISM! Even 17% is a small minority. Too big yes, but still a minority.

Gus I don't know about Sweden but 17% is Italy and the one don't think Israel has a right to EXIST, way more support terrorism (if it's against jews and also americans, not a few left wing europeans were acctually glad about 9/11). And the numbers un Spain, Germany, France, Belguim, Nerherland are way worse

[Gustaf]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

No
Thet justify it, sometimes not call it terror

Look here, I actually live here. VERY FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY SUPPORT TERRORISM! Even 17% is a small minority. Too big yes, but still a minority.

Gus I don't know about Sweden but 17% is Italy and the one don't think Israel has a right to EXIST, way more support terrorism (if it's against jews and also americans, not a few left wing europeans were acctually glad about 9/11). And the numbers un Spain, Germany, France, Belguim, Nerherland are way worse

The only people in Europe I know of who were actually HAPPY about 9/11 were Muslim children living in Europe. Most left-wingers aren't evil people who want people to die, you know. No offense, but I actually live here, and I think both you and MarkDel are letting your prejudices carry you away. I am well aware that Europe is not a great supporter of Israel and so on, but I don't think a lot of people actually wish you to die or anything like that.

[dunn]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

No
Thet justify it, sometimes not call it terror

Look here, I actually live here. VERY FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY SUPPORT TERRORISM! Even 17% is a small minority. Too big yes, but still a minority.

Gus I don't know about Sweden but 17% is Italy and the one don't think Israel has a right to EXIST, way more support terrorism (if it's against jews and also americans, not a few left wing europeans were acctually glad about 9/11). And the numbers un Spain, Germany, France, Belguim, Nerherland are way worse

The only people in Europe I know of who were actually HAPPY about 9/11 were Muslim children living in Europe. Most left-wingers aren't evil people who want people to die, you know. No offense, but I actually live here, and I think both you and MarkDel are letting your prejudices carry you away. I am well aware that Europe is not a great supporter of Israel and so on, but I don't think a lot of people actually wish you to die or anything like that.

You don't know the hatres toward Israelis and jews around the world. people that don't think Israel should exists want me dead. it's over 30% in Belguim for example

[JohnFKennedy]

I am pro Israel, as I said, I probably know the most out of people in my year, one girl was arguing with me about making it solely Palestine because it is "their land" which it isn't, they sold lots of it to the Jews who then took more by force after the Arab nations attacked it, Israel never even wanted a war in the first place (or at least so I have read), I noticed that the issue of a 14 year old boy being forced to become a suicide bomber against his will was barely reported by the news, he gave himself up to Jewish soldiers, it is bloody horrendous that.

JFK,

I know you are pro-Israel and I admire that a great deal. All I was saying is that the people who REPORT the news and the people who TEACH the classes in much of Europe are NOT pro-Israel. And because they are not pro-Israel, very little is devoted to making the Jewish case in the Middle East. For example, when was the last time one of your teachers pointed out to you that there has NEVER been a Palestinian state in the history of the world. Palestine was never a country, and the Palestinian people were essentially Middle Eastern nomads who lived in officially undeclared territory or in other nations.

I think you're seriously over-estimating the level of anti-Israel sentiment in countries like mine. The general opinion is that it's horrible. Basically. There is a lot of sympathy for Jews traditionally in both the Swedish Labour Party, the Conservatives and especially the Liberals. The Swedish liberals are like your typical whuzzy Limousine Liberals except for when it comes to Israel where they are often ultra-hawks.

Gustaf, he does not under-estimate, belibe me.

Sure, people are critical of Israel, and I'd say most hate Sharon the way they hate Bush. But are they all pro-Palestinian and everything is heavily biased? No, I certainy wouldn't say that. I am not saying that it doesn't exist or is weak, but MarkDel is giving the impression that it's somehow a massive brain-washing going on, and I think that is exaggerating. I'd like my country to be more pro-Israel, but that isn't the point here. I think the view of ISarel is heavily influenced by the trafition of anti-semitism and that's pretty weak in Sweden.

Maybe Sweden is not, but most western europe is. MarkDel is so right here.
 

Maybe Sweden is not what? Anti-semitic? Anti-Israel? It depends on your definiotn on anti-Israel of course, but most people recognize Israel's right to existence, which is where I draw the line. Sure, a lot of people are more critical than I think is warranted, but that's different.

Did you notice we are the only one that 'should' thank part of the world for recognize our right to existence. Don't antbody has that right? Sweden?USA? Chile?Gambia?India?Vanutu?
It does have a name

I never said that you should be thankful. But tell me then, how do you define being aginst Israel? Being sceptocal towards the current Israeli policy? Or what?

no
being hypocrat about Israel and/or jews. justifing terrorists in one place, denouncing them everywhere else. Not playing sports In Israel bc of the terror but playing in Istanbul/Moscow/Madrid etc.

The sports thing is a security decision, that I can't really give an opnion on, but few people do what you're now saying...justifying terrorism like that. That would be aminority definitely.

No
Thet justify it, sometimes not call it terror

Look here, I actually live here. VERY FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY SUPPORT TERRORISM! Even 17% is a small minority. Too big yes, but still a minority.

Gus I don't know about Sweden but 17% is Italy and the one don't think Israel has a right to EXIST, way more support terrorism (if it's against jews and also americans, not a few left wing europeans were acctually glad about 9/11). And the numbers un Spain, Germany, France, Belguim, Nerherland are way worse

The only people in Europe I know of who were actually HAPPY about 9/11 were Muslim children living in Europe. Most left-wingers aren't evil people who want people to die, you know. No offense, but I actually live here, and I think both you and MarkDel are letting your prejudices carry you away. I am well aware that Europe is not a great supporter of Israel and so on, but I don't think a lot of people actually wish you to die or anything like that.

Lots of people want Israel to be removed though..... terrible thing that.

[M]

Dunn, if it's any consolation, they want me dead too. Similar people killed many of my relaties 60 years ago. It's like Amos Oz said: "70 years ago, European graffiti read Jews to Palestine. Today, it reads Jews out of Palestine. Don't be here, and don't be there. In other words, don't be."

I have many relatives and friends in Israel, and last I heard they didn't particularly want to be thrown into the sea. I can understand those emotions. I myself have no great desire to end up in a crematorium. But I probably should be more understanding of the rightful Lebensraum of the Filastini volk, whose land is occupied by judeobolshevik mongrels. Guess I just don't have enough compassion and tolerance for that argument. Does that make me a bad democrat?

[dunn]

Dunn, if it's any consolation, they want me dead too. Similar people killed many of my relaties 60 years ago. It's like Amos Oz said: "70 years ago, European graffiti read Jews to Palestine. Today, it reads Jews out of Palestine. Don't be here, and don't be there. In other words, don't be."

I have many relatives and friends in Israel, and last I heard they didn't particularly want to be thrown into the sea. I can understand those emotions. I myself have no great desire to end up in a crematorium. But I probably should be more understanding of the rightful Lebensraum of the Filastini volk, whose land is occupied by judeobolshevik mongrels. Guess I just don't have enough compassion and tolerance for that argument. Does that make me a bad democrat?

I know some of them wants you dead too. we are brothers.

I didn't understand the last part was it a joke?

[Old Europe]

I support the formation of a Palestinian state as well as the existence of an Israeli state.

I think Ariel Sharon is an asshole, but Yassir Arafat is even dumber. I´m a Yitzhak Rabin admirer.

And I generally deny any accusation of me being an anti-Semite as anti-European and anti-German.

I don´t want to piss off MarkDel, but the really scary thing is that I personally know some anti-Semites who are pro-American and pro-Bush conservatives.

[Sibboleth]

Over here "real" anti-semitism is mostly confined to Muslims and right wingers...

[Gustaf]

Over here "real" anti-semitism is mostly confined to Muslims and right wingers...

That's basically my point. Though I do think there are some radical left-wingers as well.

M,

I can definitely understand your sentiment. I like Amos Oz, from what I can remember he's a very reasonable person. He got a prize of some sort, in Sweden I think, and there was an interview with him on tv, about a year ago or so. I remember my mum was impressed with him and used him in her 'speech to the spring' that someone in our neighbourhood holds every year to greet the spring.

[Old Europe]

That's basically my point. Though I do think there are some radical left-wingers as well.

That´s right. I think extreme leftists (and I mean REALLY extreme) see themselves as "anti-Zionist", because Zionism is a form of nationalism/imperialism and Marxists are fighting against imperialism etc.

Anyway, the democratic leftist parties in Germany tend to be very "anti-anti-Semitic", partly because it´s seen as political correct to be against anti-Semitism (has also something to do with the Holocaust etc.). And I´ve met conservatives who complained that "political correctness" has gone too far these days and that it has to be possible to "criticize" the jews.

The last anti-Semitic scandal we had here was then a Member of Parliament of the conservative CDU indirectly called the jews a "race of perpetrators" (maybe somebody heard of it). After some time of bitter political debate within and without the party this MP was expelled from his party.

[Gustaf]

That's basically my point. Though I do think there are some radical left-wingers as well.

That´s right. I think extreme leftists (and I mean REALLY extreme) see themselves as "anti-Zionist", because Zionism is a form of nationalism/imperialism and Marxists are fighting against imperialism etc.

Anyway, the democratic leftist parties in Germany tend to be very "anti-anti-Semitic", partly because it´s seen as political correct to be against anti-Semitism (has also something to do with the Holocaust etc.). And I´ve met conservatives who complained that "political correctness" has gone too far these days and that it has to be possible to "criticize" the jews.

The last anti-Semitic scandal we had here was then a Member of Parliament of the conservative CDU indirectly called the jews a "race of perpetrators" (maybe someone heard of it). After some time of bitter political debate within and without the party this MP was expelled from his party.

And there was Möllem as well...I find it funny that the liberal parties in Germany and Austria have such strong anti-semitic traditions, whereas the Swedish liberals are the exact opposite.