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| | |-+  Scott Walker recall goes live
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Author Topic: Scott Walker recall goes live  (Read 34648 times)
Napoleon
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« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2012, 02:48:40 am »
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Recall is a waste of time and money. Safe Walker. Feingold was the only shot.
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« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2012, 12:18:49 pm »
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I'm pulling for Governor Walker, he's been a pretty decent governor so far. (Not as good as Kasich or Snyder, but still pretty good.)



What? Scott Walker, a decent governor? What has he done right, at all? I can understand liking his going head to head with the unions (since you seem to be a Republican), but other than that, what good has he done?

He's balanced Wisconsin's budget.

And at what cost?

Not much at all, unless you're a butthurt union.

You do realize that the unions had already agreed to Walker's budget cuts, and only went up in arms when he restricted collective bargaining, right? Because that's what happened. It isn't the budget that's the issue.
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krazen1211
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« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2012, 08:06:31 pm »
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I'm pulling for Governor Walker, he's been a pretty decent governor so far. (Not as good as Kasich or Snyder, but still pretty good.)



What? Scott Walker, a decent governor? What has he done right, at all? I can understand liking his going head to head with the unions (since you seem to be a Republican), but other than that, what good has he done?

He's balanced Wisconsin's budget.

And at what cost?

Not much at all, unless you're a butthurt union.

You do realize that the unions had already agreed to Walker's budget cuts, and only went up in arms when he restricted collective bargaining, right? Because that's what happened. It isn't the budget that's the issue.

Certainly then, the cost was not much at all, was it?
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« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2012, 12:16:27 am »
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I'm pulling for Governor Walker, he's been a pretty decent governor so far. (Not as good as Kasich or Snyder, but still pretty good.)



What? Scott Walker, a decent governor? What has he done right, at all? I can understand liking his going head to head with the unions (since you seem to be a Republican), but other than that, what good has he done?

He's balanced Wisconsin's budget.

And at what cost?

Not much at all, unless you're a butthurt union.

You do realize that the unions had already agreed to Walker's budget cuts, and only went up in arms when he restricted collective bargaining, right? Because that's what happened. It isn't the budget that's the issue.

Certainly then, the cost was not much at all, was it?


The cost came in the life and pride of the working people of Wisconsin, which is bound up in collective bargaining. Unless you're playing dumb or sincerely believe that 'cost' is a solely budgetary term.
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« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2012, 01:54:37 am »
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I'm pulling for Governor Walker, he's been a pretty decent governor so far. (Not as good as Kasich or Snyder, but still pretty good.)



What? Scott Walker, a decent governor? What has he done right, at all? I can understand liking his going head to head with the unions (since you seem to be a Republican), but other than that, what good has he done?

He's balanced Wisconsin's budget.

And at what cost?

Not much at all, unless you're a butthurt union.

You do realize that the unions had already agreed to Walker's budget cuts, and only went up in arms when he restricted collective bargaining, right? Because that's what happened. It isn't the budget that's the issue.

Certainly then, the cost was not much at all, was it?


The cost came in the life and pride of the working people of Wisconsin, which is bound up in collective bargaining. Unless you're playing dumb or sincerely believe that 'cost' is a solely budgetary term.

He is not playing. He is the real deal.
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« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2012, 10:50:47 am »
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Why are Republicans still pushing the anti-union nonsense after the Ohio vote?
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krazen1211
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« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2012, 11:48:17 am »
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The cost came in the life and pride of the working people of Wisconsin, which is bound up in collective bargaining. Unless you're playing dumb or sincerely believe that 'cost' is a solely budgetary term.

Who are these people who lost their life and pride that was formerly 'bound up' in collective bargaining for certain public sector unions?

Particularly life!
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« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2012, 11:50:07 am »
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Why are Republicans still pushing the anti-union nonsense after the Ohio vote?

Wisconsin is not Ohio and the Wisconsin law came before the Ohio one. While Ohio voters have clearly renounced our union bill, the voters of Wisconsin haven't really done that. Most of the recalls resulted in the candidate simply being re-elected, with the exception of a Republican who held a seat a Republican shouldn't be able to hold and a sex scandal-ridden incumbent.

There was a point in Ohio where most Republicans wouldn't touch Kasich (though he's rebounded quite a bit since). The only thing that seems to have happened in Wisconsin is more polarization.
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« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2012, 04:31:27 pm »
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The cost came in the life and pride of the working people of Wisconsin, which is bound up in collective bargaining. Unless you're playing dumb or sincerely believe that 'cost' is a solely budgetary term.

Who are these people who lost their life and pride that was formerly 'bound up' in collective bargaining for certain public sector unions?

Particularly life!

Sorry. I meant 'way of' life, not that the people were literally killed. I thought this would be obvious, but I keep forgetting you're not one for appreciating any kind of linguistic nuance.

I am referring, of course, to cops, teachers, and firefighters, who have lost their right to negotiate on any kind of even ground for work conditions or benefits; to the private sector unions who are justifiably afraid that they might be next considering the kind of vile rhetoric being spewed from certain quarters on the Right; and those people in Wisconsin who might not have a personal interest or stake but who are simply rightly proud of their state's union and labor history.

Of course, it's pretty clear that you don't understand why one would care a jot about groups that one isn't directly part of, so you will, of course, continue to levy the rhetoric of tax-based spite against groups that almost certainly do more for society than whatever it is that you do.
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« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2012, 05:25:39 pm »
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Recall is a waste of time and money. Safe Walker. Feingold was the only shot.

Well if Rassy even says that the state wants Walker recalled, I think it's fair to assume Feingold isn't the only chance the Dems got.
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« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2012, 05:51:13 pm »
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The cost came in the life and pride of the working people of Wisconsin, which is bound up in collective bargaining. Unless you're playing dumb or sincerely believe that 'cost' is a solely budgetary term.

Who are these people who lost their life and pride that was formerly 'bound up' in collective bargaining for certain public sector unions?

Particularly life!

Sorry. I meant 'way of' life, not that the people were literally killed. I thought this would be obvious, but I keep forgetting you're not one for appreciating any kind of linguistic nuance.

I am referring, of course, to cops, teachers, and firefighters, who have lost their right to negotiate on any kind of even ground for work conditions or benefits; to the private sector unions who are justifiably afraid that they might be next considering the kind of vile rhetoric being spewed from certain quarters on the Right; and those people in Wisconsin who might not have a personal interest or stake but who are simply rightly proud of their state's union and labor history.

Of course, it's pretty clear that you don't understand why one would care a jot about groups that one isn't directly part of, so you will, of course, continue to levy the rhetoric of tax-based spite against groups that almost certainly do more for society than whatever it is that you do.


The legislation that Scott Walker signed exempts police and firemen from many of its provisions. So you're at best 1 for 3 before you start getting into amusing hypotheticals.

One wonders whether these people are also justifiably afraid of Obama raising their taxes given the nature of the vile rhetoric being spewed from the Left.

I would love to meet someone who is so antagonized by the violation of their 'rightful pride' in this union and labor history. Certainly they must be quite wealthy to be so worried about such things.
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Nathan
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« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2012, 08:30:51 pm »
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The cost came in the life and pride of the working people of Wisconsin, which is bound up in collective bargaining. Unless you're playing dumb or sincerely believe that 'cost' is a solely budgetary term.

Who are these people who lost their life and pride that was formerly 'bound up' in collective bargaining for certain public sector unions?

Particularly life!

Sorry. I meant 'way of' life, not that the people were literally killed. I thought this would be obvious, but I keep forgetting you're not one for appreciating any kind of linguistic nuance.

I am referring, of course, to cops, teachers, and firefighters, who have lost their right to negotiate on any kind of even ground for work conditions or benefits; to the private sector unions who are justifiably afraid that they might be next considering the kind of vile rhetoric being spewed from certain quarters on the Right; and those people in Wisconsin who might not have a personal interest or stake but who are simply rightly proud of their state's union and labor history.

Of course, it's pretty clear that you don't understand why one would care a jot about groups that one isn't directly part of, so you will, of course, continue to levy the rhetoric of tax-based spite against groups that almost certainly do more for society than whatever it is that you do.


The legislation that Scott Walker signed exempts police and firemen from many of its provisions. So you're at best 1 for 3 before you start getting into amusing hypotheticals.

Then why did those unions still mobilize against it? Could they possibly have--gasp!--cared about other working people and feared for their own rights on the basis of things happening to others?!


Quote
One wonders whether these people are also justifiably afraid of Obama raising their taxes given the nature of the vile rhetoric being spewed from the Left.

There certainly are people who are afraid of this, possibly for good reason, but one would have to be quite wealthy or quite misinformed to be so considering there's little political will to raise taxes on any other groups than those that can live pretty much anywhere other than San Francisco or Manhattan in concupiscent comfort if they don't blow through their money like Hammer, and besides, the 'right' to be taxed at some arbitrarily low rate does not exist, whereas the right to organize does. Taxes are the weregild we pay to society, and they're refunded in the form of getting to vote for leaders (which you of course also don't support since you're one of the voter-fraud concern trolls if I recall correctly). Including, unfortunately, leaders who rule from corporate boardrooms and prioritize the interests of the useless corporate middleman-class over the useful working and academic classes.

Quote
I would love to meet someone who is so antagonized by the violation of their 'rightful pride' in this union and labor history.

Go to Wisconsin and talk to ten or twelve people and five or six of them would probably be able to explain this to you.

Quote
Certainly they must be quite wealthy to be so worried about such things.

This doesn't even make sense. Serious question: Do you in fact know what a union is or does?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 08:32:42 pm by Nathan »Logged

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krazen1211
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« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2012, 08:52:25 pm »
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Then why did those unions still mobilize against it? Could they possibly have--gasp!--cared about other working people and feared for their own rights on the basis of things happening to others?!



Certainly, for the right to mobilize public funding for the benefit of the Democratic party and other chosen politicians.



Quote

There certainly are people who are afraid of this, possibly for good reason, but one would have to be quite wealthy or quite misinformed to be so considering there's little political will to raise taxes on any other groups than those that can live pretty much anywhere other than San Francisco or Manhattan in concupiscent comfort if they don't blow through their money like Hammer, and besides, the 'right' to be taxed at some arbitrarily low rate does not exist, whereas the right to organize does. Taxes are the weregild we pay to society, and they're refunded in the form of getting to vote for leaders (which you of course also don't support since you're one of the voter-fraud concern trolls if I recall correctly). Including, unfortunately, leaders who rule from corporate boardrooms and prioritize the interests of the useless corporate middleman-class over the useful working and academic classes.

Certainly the fear is much better grounded than that. Former governor Jim Doyle of course proposes billions of dollars on tax increases. This of course after he said in 2003 that he would not raise taxes! Taxes and fees, of course, that impact every working citizen and not a select few who happen to live in Dane County and scream a lot because the lavish government benefits they have let them skip work, while real working citizens actually go to work to pay their salaries.

Given that Walker specifically exempted policemen from the union bill, it would be absurd to fear him doing so. Unless of course one has more sinister motives.

There is certainly no established right to collectively bargain with government entities! Great states like Virginia stamped out collective bargaining decades ago and reaped the windfall of their heroic actions.


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This doesn't even make sense. Serious question: Do you in fact know what a union is or does?

Yes, of course. They abuse market power through a loophole in the Sherman act.
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2012, 11:24:08 am »
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Milwaukee Police and Fire Unions have endorsed Walker. 
Private sector Union members are a little hacked off at Democrats for blocking a hugely popular 'mining' bill that would instantly create thousands of jobs and long term economic wealth in a depressed area of the state (as well as Milwaukee being the mining equipment capitol of the world).  The shameful block of the bill was based on....   democrats blind hate and public unions opposition. 

Falk has almost no chance.
Barrett is the do nothing type of democrat, which tends to be better than the other type.  He may win the primary despite the unions buying Falk.  Which would be another defeat for the unions before the recall election.  Barrett is likely to lose, but even as governor he won't do anything to reverse Walkers actions because they work so well.  Barrett used all of the Walker tools from act 10 in his City budget.  Barrett is a Property tax raiser and Walker is a guy who delivered a Freeze to cut in a tough climate to do so. 

asking a public employee to contribute a small amount to a lavish pension that they GET TO COLLECT FROM at age 55 isn't much to ask.  Millionaire public employees protesting as if they were going to starve to death was an amazing sight.             
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2012, 11:38:10 am »
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They only turned in about 800some thousand signatures.  They counted blank lines on a petition page in the million number.  Additionally 200k or more have been identified as probably bogus signatures.  They may have had the 550k they needed.  Hard to find and challenge the bogus ones in the two weeks granted to do so.  Doyle Appointees on the GAB have made consistent ridiculous rulings anyway.  Walker chose to avoid that battle and will instead embarrass democrats nationally.             
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #90 on: April 11, 2012, 03:16:45 pm »
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wow!,

 not paying anything toward your pension = "paying for their pension themselves after all"

and

"deferred compensation" = I get paid after I stop working via "Magic"
No, "deferred compensation", meaning "I'll take some of my salary now, and put some of it into a pension fund instead."


OK I read your link, "Wisconsin taxpayers spent about $12.6 billion on public employee pensions while public employees contributed only $55.4 million." I think that comes out to 0.4%...  wow and 99.6% magically appears. 
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #91 on: April 11, 2012, 03:24:54 pm »
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Gass3268, So outside of the statehouse not one extremist? ? ?

How about the majority of people in Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties?

You do realize modest adjustments to balance budgets and improve the economy isn't exactly a definition of extreme right?

Yeah but taking away a right is a definition of extremism.

Sigh, Collective Bargaining is not a right, it is a privilege.  Walker gave public employees the privilege to opt out of these belligerent Unions.  I know that expansion of freedom is scary to you, but it is not extremist.  Thinking you have a right from God to Bargain against the taxpayers of Wisconsin IS extremist.

Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties are the most productive, highest tax-paying people in the state, what is extreme about them?      

I guess I'm with Ronald Reagan on this one:
"These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland. The values that have inspired other dissidents under Communist domination.  They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.  They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.  You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children.  Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation not how high is the price of freedom but how much it is worth that price."

Also:

"I happen to be the only president of a union ever to be a candidate for President of the United States.
As president of my union -- the Screen Actors Guild -- I spent many hours with the late George Meany, whose love of this country and whose belief in a strong defense against all totalitarians is one of laborís greatest legacies. "

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/9.1.80.html

It's a measure of today's Republican party that it now views defending something Ronald Reagan saw as a bulwark against totalitarianism makes you in to a leftist extremist.

Reagan was probably talking about private sector Unions.  He ordered the air traffic controllers back to work and desertified that Union as I recall.  

I guess I'm with FDR on this one:
"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service," Roosevelt wrote in 1937 to the National Federation of Federal Employees. Yes, public workers may demand fair treatment, wrote Roosevelt. But, he wrote, "I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place" in the public sector. "A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government."
And the last prominent American Socialist
Frank Zeidler, Milwaukee's mayor in the 1950s and the last card-carrying Socialist to head a major U.S. city, supported labor. But in 1969, the progressive icon wrote that the rise of unions in government work put a competing power in charge of public business next to elected officials. Government unions "can mean considerable loss of control over the budget, and hence over tax rates," he warned.  There was "a revolutionary principle rather quietly at work in American government," he wrote.

I think I heard that 100 decibel principle at work in the Wisconsin capitol last year.  It sounded something like "I will not pay a dime toward my million dollar pension!!!"

Walker's modest shift is to try securing necessary government at a better price. The public unions, whose model depends on making government labor as costly as taxpayers will bear, object.  
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #92 on: April 11, 2012, 03:27:04 pm »
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Gass3268, So outside of the statehouse not one extremist? ? ?

How about the majority of people in Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties?

You do realize modest adjustments to balance budgets and improve the economy isn't exactly a definition of extreme right?

Yeah but taking away a right is a definition of extremism.

Sigh, Collective Bargaining is not a right, it is a privilege.  Walker gave public employees the privilege to opt out of these belligerent Unions.  I know that expansion of freedom is scary to you, but it is not extremist.  Thinking you have a right from God to Bargain against the taxpayers of Wisconsin IS extremist.

Ozaukee, Waukesha and Washington Counties are the most productive, highest tax-paying people in the state, what is extreme about them?      

I guess I'm with Ronald Reagan on this one:
"These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland. The values that have inspired other dissidents under Communist domination.  They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost.  They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.  You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children.  Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation not how high is the price of freedom but how much it is worth that price."

Also:

"I happen to be the only president of a union ever to be a candidate for President of the United States.
As president of my union -- the Screen Actors Guild -- I spent many hours with the late George Meany, whose love of this country and whose belief in a strong defense against all totalitarians is one of laborís greatest legacies. "

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/9.1.80.html

It's a measure of today's Republican party that it now views defending something Ronald Reagan saw as a bulwark against totalitarianism makes you in to a leftist extremist.

Reagan was probably talking about private sector Unions.  He ordered the air traffic controllers back to work and desertified that Union as I recall.  

I guess I'm with FDR on this one:
"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service," Roosevelt wrote in 1937 to the National Federation of Federal Employees. Yes, public workers may demand fair treatment, wrote Roosevelt. But, he wrote, "I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place" in the public sector. "A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government."
And the last prominent American Socialist
Frank Zeidler, Milwaukee's mayor in the 1950s and the last card-carrying Socialist to head a major U.S. city, supported labor. But in 1969, the progressive icon wrote that the rise of unions in government work put a competing power in charge of public business next to elected officials. Government unions "can mean considerable loss of control over the budget, and hence over tax rates," he warned.  There was "a revolutionary principle rather quietly at work in American government," he wrote.

I think I heard that 100 decibel principle at work in the Wisconsin capitol last year.  It sounded something like "I will not pay a dime toward my million dollar pension!!!"

Walker's modest shift is to try securing necessary government at a better price. The public unions, whose model depends on making government labor as costly as taxpayers will bear, object.  
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #93 on: April 11, 2012, 03:31:50 pm »
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wow!,

 not paying anything toward your pension = "paying for their pension themselves after all"

and

"deferred compensation" = I get paid after I stop working via "Magic"
No, "deferred compensation", meaning "I'll take some of my salary now, and put some of it into a pension fund instead."


OK I read your link, "From Governor Walkerís standpoint, however, itís an issue of equity. From 2000 to 2009, the governor says, Wisconsin taxpayers spent about $12.6 billion on public employee pensions while public employees contributed only $55.4 million.

" I think that comes out to 0.4%...  wow and 99.6% magically appears. 
Fixed your quote from the stateline.org piece. From the Forbes (Forbes, mind you!) piece, citing a piece on tax.com:

"Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to ďcontribute moreĒ to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walkerí s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsiní s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers."

Where did you find that? and how would it be possible for the employees to be "fully funding 100 %" and the state simultaneously paying 99.6% AND the new contribution from the walker reforms covers 50% ? ? ? ? 
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #94 on: April 11, 2012, 03:40:45 pm »
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http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/walker-challenger-tom-barrett-sought-to-weaken-uni
Walker Challenger Tom Barrett Sought To Weaken Unions In Milwaukee
In a proposal obtained by BuzzFeed, the city of Milwaukee looked to end collective bargaining on overtime hours and pensions. ďCollective bargaining at work,Ē says Barrett spokesman.

LOL! ! !, WOW. 
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« Reply #95 on: April 11, 2012, 05:28:58 pm »
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Urgent memo to AmericanNation: Who are you talking to? Tongue
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #96 on: April 11, 2012, 05:32:55 pm »
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I moved the stuff over from a different thread. 
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« Reply #97 on: April 13, 2012, 08:38:44 am »
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Additionally 200k or more have been identified as probably bogus signatures.

O RLY?

Anyway, Dems seem to be setting up a circular firing squad here...
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #98 on: April 13, 2012, 08:54:08 am »
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Additionally 200k or more have been identified as probably bogus signatures.

O RLY?

Anyway, Dems seem to be setting up a circular firing squad here...

Yea, a volunteer army has been examining the petitions on an online database.  Scot Walker signed it 50 times, daffy duck, mickey mouse, etc.  MANY people signed more than once, some weren't filled out properly, some forgery's were discovered... you get the picture.  They probably got enough signatures, but a failure rate approaching 40% is a little troubling.   
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« Reply #99 on: April 13, 2012, 03:54:54 pm »
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Additionally 200k or more have been identified as probably bogus signatures.

O RLY?

Anyway, Dems seem to be setting up a circular firing squad here...

Yea, a volunteer army has been examining the petitions on an online database.  Scot Walker signed it 50 times, daffy duck, mickey mouse, etc.  MANY people signed more than once, some weren't filled out properly, some forgery's were discovered... you get the picture.  They probably got enough signatures, but a failure rate approaching 40% is a little troubling.   

Do you have a link to a source that says 200,000 signatures are "probably bogus"?

Not to put too fine a point to it, but it doesn't cost anything for random Republicans to make an outrageous, unsupported claim to undermine the legitimacy of the elections.
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