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Author Topic: Scott Walker recall goes live  (Read 33178 times)
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brittain33
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« Reply #600 on: June 06, 2012, 08:26:03 am »
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You guys realize that the exit poll showed the Walker recall TIED and that Romney has campaigned ZERO in Wisconsin right?  It's a great idea to hang your hat on that exit poll.

The democrats have a huge permanent turnkey infrastructure in Wisconsin that will produce 45% of the vote every time.  
Vs.
The Republicans have to rebuild their campaign organization every two years.

The democrats thought they could steamroll democracy by using their unfair advantage.  What a monumental miscalculation.  They never seem to grasp how backlash works.        

Republicans spent $30 million defending Walker, Dems spent $3 million.

Dems have now retaken the WI Senate.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 08:29:23 am by brittain33 »Logged
krazen1211
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« Reply #601 on: June 06, 2012, 08:31:45 am »
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Yes, it does appear that the exit poll was garbage.

Yep. Bad on me for wanting to believe it and then using it to criticize people for wanting to believe We Ask America... bad exit polls are hardly new this year so I should have known better. In the end it went exactly as polls have been predicting for months.

Interesting in that what we see is that executives seem to survive, but legislators pay the price. 

Well, Walker slightly declined in Racine County from 2010. And a couple really red precincts in Racine County are not in SD-21. GOP has only themselves to blame for not using the new map; of course, Walker won easily in SD-12 and SD-18.
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brittain33
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« Reply #602 on: June 06, 2012, 08:31:58 am »
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The democrats have a huge permanent turnkey infrastructure in Wisconsin that will produce 45% of the vote every time.   

Bzzt.

1990    Tommy Thompson (R/inc.) 58%    Thomas A. Loftus (D) 42%
1994    Tommy Thompson (R/inc.) 67%    Charles J. Chvala (D) 30%
1998    Tommy Thompson (R/inc.) 60%    Ed Garvey (D) 39%
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brittain33
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« Reply #603 on: June 06, 2012, 08:34:06 am »
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You guys realize that the exit poll showed the Walker recall TIED and that Romney has campaigned ZERO in Wisconsin right?  It's a great idea to hang your hat on that exit poll.

The democrats have a huge permanent turnkey infrastructure in Wisconsin that will produce 45% of the vote every time.  
Vs.
The Republicans have to rebuild their campaign organization every two years.

The democrats thought they could steamroll democracy by using their unfair advantage.  What a monumental miscalculation.  They never seem to grasp how backlash works.        

Republicans spent $30 million defending Walker, Dems spent $3 million.

Dems have now retaken the WI Senate.

And Obama in 2008 spent $310M on ads, McCain $134M. I'm sure everyone's just as offended by this, right?

Yes, I think having a tremendous amount of money in politics is a bad thing. I'm glad that on a rare occasion the Dems had an advantage but overall I'd prefer a more equitable system, especially given the willingness of one party to trade industry donations for much larger legislative advantages (subsidies, repeal of regulation, etc.) as a matter of party philosophy. It's bad for democracy and bad for society and Republicans actively revel in it. It's revolting. Seeing the financial industry buy a party in order to buy its way back into the absence of regulation is dispiriting because it's going to have a real impact on the way our economy lurches from crisis to crisis.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 08:35:43 am by brittain33 »Logged
Keystone Phil
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« Reply #604 on: June 06, 2012, 08:38:58 am »
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Dems spent a year and a half labeling Scott Walker as the spawn of Satan. There was tons of free media. If what Walker was doing was so horrific, the money advantage can't be used as an excuse.

Jon Corzine outspent Bob Franks by how much in New Jersey in 2000? He won by only three points in a Presidential election year as a Democrat. Corzine wasn't unpopular either. Walker, however, had a huge money advantage as well but was supposedly evil. That should be enough to overcome the money advantage, right?

Bottom line: Walker wasn't nearly as unpopular as many imagined and certainly wasn't worthy of being recalled.

And the Dems have the Senate by one seat. That's not a statewide narrative and it will only last six months. It's a victory for Dems/labor, sure, but it's minuscule in comparison to the other race of the night.
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brittain33
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« Reply #605 on: June 06, 2012, 08:43:35 am »
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Dems spent a year and a half labeling Scott Walker as the spawn of Satan. There was tons of free media. If what Walker was doing was so horrific, the money advantage can't be used as an excuse.

Jon Corzine outspent Bob Franks by how much in New Jersey in 2000? He won by only three points in a Presidential election year as a Democrat. Corzine wasn't unpopular either. Walker, however, had a huge money advantage as well but was supposedly evil. That should be enough to overcome the money advantage, right?

Bottom line: Walker wasn't nearly as unpopular as many imagined and certainly wasn't worthy of being recalled.

And the Dems have the Senate by one seat. That's not a statewide narrative and it will only last six months. It's a victory for Dems/labor, sure, but it's minuscule in comparison to the other race of the night.

I've said pretty consistently here that Walker wasn't going to be successfully recalled. The exit poll gave me false hope it was going to be close, but going back months the projections were clear that there wasn't a majority to pull him out of the governorship.

I was responding to American Nation's comment that the Dems had a steamroller in this race. Do you feel Dems had a steamroller in this race when Walker outspent them 10-1? The national Dems saw the writing on the wall and held back from this. Meanwhile, the Republicans' funding network poured in big money.

If you want to cite Corzine as an example that money doesn't make a difference, you and I both know we can find a few bazillion races in between where it did. And I'm not saying that if it had been $10m to $10m that Barrett would have won, but we can't know, and if it had been Barrett at $30m to Walker with $3m, I can pretty easily imagine your post here about it.

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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #606 on: June 06, 2012, 09:14:58 am »
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Dems spent a year and a half labeling Scott Walker as the spawn of Satan. There was tons of free media. If what Walker was doing was so horrific, the money advantage can't be used as an excuse.

Jon Corzine outspent Bob Franks by how much in New Jersey in 2000? He won by only three points in a Presidential election year as a Democrat. Corzine wasn't unpopular either. Walker, however, had a huge money advantage as well but was supposedly evil. That should be enough to overcome the money advantage, right?

Bottom line: Walker wasn't nearly as unpopular as many imagined and certainly wasn't worthy of being recalled.

And the Dems have the Senate by one seat. That's not a statewide narrative and it will only last six months. It's a victory for Dems/labor, sure, but it's minuscule in comparison to the other race of the night.

I've said pretty consistently here that Walker wasn't going to be successfully recalled. The exit poll gave me false hope it was going to be close, but going back months the projections were clear that there wasn't a majority to pull him out of the governorship.

I was responding to American Nation's comment that the Dems had a steamroller in this race. Do you feel Dems had a steamroller in this race when Walker outspent them 10-1? The national Dems saw the writing on the wall and held back from this. Meanwhile, the Republicans' funding network poured in big money.

If you want to cite Corzine as an example that money doesn't make a difference, you and I both know we can find a few bazillion races in between where it did. And I'm not saying that if it had been $10m to $10m that Barrett would have won, but we can't know, and if it had been Barrett at $30m to Walker with $3m, I can pretty easily imagine your post here about it.



Dems (as well as Republicans) had plenty of ground troops especially from out of staters. Labor forces are supposed to be a steamroller in Wisconsin.

As for the money advantage, please don't assume what my response would be of Barrett had the insane advantage. How much did Obama outspend McCain by? I didn't complain. I'll note when someone has the advantage (and it might irritate me if the opposition has that or any advabtage but that's politics. I dont whine that it's unfair. I guess I do "whine" about a Corzine situation when an individual pumps tens of millions of their own money for a seat but only because I personally find it crazy) and, yes, most times it makes a difference but a situation like this? It wasn't the deciding factor.
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« Reply #607 on: June 06, 2012, 09:17:32 am »
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Actually Phil, you did throw a fit about Obama opting out of public funding.
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brittain33
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« Reply #608 on: June 06, 2012, 09:19:18 am »
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How much did Obama outspend McCain by? I didn't complain.

Because it didn't matter and Obama was going to win anyway.

Quote
I'll note when someone has the advantage (and it might irritate me if the opposition has that or any advabtage but that's politics. I dont whine that it's unfair.

I didn't "whine" that it's unfair. I also think that since it's exception for a Dem to have this advantage, it would be counterproductive for a Republican to complain.

I gave my reasons as to why I think it's bad for democracy and government in my above post. Do you think having tons of money in politics is good?

Quote
I guess I do "whine" about a Corzine situation when an individual pumps tens of millions of their own money for a seat but only because I personally find it crazy) and, yes, most times it makes a difference but a situation like this? It wasn't the deciding factor.

I don't think it was the deciding factor. However, it certainly didn't hurt.

I was responding to American Nation's post that Dems had a steamroller advantage in WI.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #609 on: June 06, 2012, 09:35:38 am »
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Actually Phil, you did throw a fit about Obama opting out of public funding.

...because of hypocrisy. It had nothing to do with the actual act of opting out. Nice fail again, dude. I love when you do that.

How much did Obama outspend McCain by? I didn't complain.

Because it didn't matter and Obama was going to win anyway.

Oh, ok. So that makes it fine. Roll Eyes

But that's actually my point (and I can make that point because I don't think it's an unfair practice): Walker was going to win anyway.

Quote


I didn't "whine" that it's unfair. I also think that since it's exception for a Dem to have this advantage, it would be counterproductive for a Republican to complain.

I gave my reasons as to why I think it's bad for democracy and government in my above post. Do you think having tons of money in politics is good?

And I'm not discussing whether it's "good" or not. It's not unfair in my opinion.

And now I understand why you're allowed to whine: because it usually benefits Republicans. What a joke.

Quote
I was responding to American Nation's post that Dems had a steamroller advantage in WI.

And I addressed that.
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« Reply #610 on: June 06, 2012, 10:07:58 am »
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I was responding to American Nation's post that Dems had a steamroller advantage in WI.
1) I didn't say they had a "steamroller advantage."  I said they have an "advantage" and they miscalculated by trying to use it to "steamroll democracy."  then I immediately said it created a backlash.  How did you warp that so much?

2) Democrats spent OVER 20 million, so this MSNBC spending excuse crap needs to stop now.  You only need 10 million to run a statewide campaign in this state.  

3) This is only what has been 'tracked' so far.  Millions are still unaccounted for.   

http://www.maciverinstitute.com/2012/06/big-labor-recall-total-to-exceed-20-million/

« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 10:13:01 am by AmericanNation »Logged

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« Reply #611 on: June 06, 2012, 10:28:00 am »
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The democrats have a huge permanent turnkey infrastructure in Wisconsin that will produce 45% of the vote every time.  

Bzzt.

1990    Tommy Thompson (R/inc.) 58%    Thomas A. Loftus (D) 42%
1994    Tommy Thompson (R/inc.) 67%    Charles J. Chvala (D) 30%
1998    Tommy Thompson (R/inc.) 60%    Ed Garvey (D) 39%
I was talking about NOW specifically and in those elections, Thompson picked off a significant amount of the black vote that is easily described as part of the dem "infrastructure" or "machine."  Also, being the most popular politician in the history of the state "helps."  Given the amount of hate being preached by the dems, I don't know if that will happen again.  

PS,
This sums up why Walker won perfectly.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/why-scott-walker-won-battle-wisconsin_646696.html
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 10:44:11 am by AmericanNation »Logged

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« Reply #612 on: June 06, 2012, 12:04:45 pm »
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What matters is we took the Senate, so Walker will at least be leashed.
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« Reply #613 on: June 06, 2012, 12:45:47 pm »
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What matters is we took the Senate, so Walker will at least be leashed.

That isn't true (the part about leashing Walker).

From the America-hating nutjobs at DailyKos: "Lehman's victory gives Democrats a majority of seats in the chamber, though the legislature is not scheduled to meet again until next year—that is, after the November elections in which control of the body will once again be up for grabs. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/06/1097772/-Daily-Kos-Elections-Morning-Digest-Scott-Walker-survives-recall-but-Democrats-take-state-Senate?detail=hide

So contrary to what a lot of Dems on this board are saying, y'all really got N-O-T-H-I-N-G out of this recall, no matter how you slice it.
Really? I'm sure that Walker would be calling a special session or equvalent first thing today if that Senator wouldn't be recalled.
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AmericanNation
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« Reply #614 on: June 06, 2012, 12:46:36 pm »
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What matters is we took the Senate...
So you spent between 50 and 100 million dollars and you get to "pretend" to have control of the Wisconsin State Senate for 5 months.  Wow.


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« Reply #615 on: June 06, 2012, 01:39:14 pm »
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Walker
Campaign: $29 million
Outside Groups: $16 million

Barrett
Campaign: $3 million
Outside Groups: $6 million

Also, could this site get any f**king slower during an election night?

Big deal.  It's not Republicans fault if Wisconsin Dems can't raise the big bucks.  And let's face it, it takes big bucks to compete in and to win elections in this era.


Good job missing the point.

That money barely influences election results?

No, that it does.
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« Reply #616 on: June 06, 2012, 01:40:50 pm »
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What matters is we took the Senate...
So you spent between 50 and 100 million dollars and you get to "pretend" to have control of the Wisconsin State Senate for 5 months.  Wow.

I hardly think it's completely inconceivable that a bare Democratic advantage in the state senate could continue to exist after November (granted, it's distinctly unlikely on account of the gerrymandering), but admittedly it's not like this was done last year when it actually would have, well, mattered.
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A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

His idea of freedom is - it is a bad thing and should be stopped at all costs.

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« Reply #617 on: June 06, 2012, 01:43:05 pm »
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What matters is we took the Senate, so Walker will at least be leashed.

That isn't true (the part about leashing Walker).

From the America-hating nutjobs at DailyKos: "Lehman's victory gives Democrats a majority of seats in the chamber, though the legislature is not scheduled to meet again until next year—that is, after the November elections in which control of the body will once again be up for grabs. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/06/1097772/-Daily-Kos-Elections-Morning-Digest-Scott-Walker-survives-recall-but-Democrats-take-state-Senate?detail=hide

So contrary to what a lot of Dems on this board are saying, y'all really got N-O-T-H-I-N-G out of this recall, no matter how you slice it.

So then, regardless of what the outcome was, neither the governor or the legislature would've been able to do anything?  At least Walker can't do any more damage for now, then.

Also, please change your avatar.
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« Reply #618 on: June 06, 2012, 01:44:12 pm »
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So then, regardless of what the outcome was, neither the governor or the legislature would've been able to do anything?  At least Walker can't do any more damage, then.

Not for another half a year or so, anyway. The state senate redistricting was admittedly rather, shall we say, skilful.
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« Reply #619 on: June 06, 2012, 01:49:41 pm »
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Walker
Campaign: $29 million
Outside Groups: $16 million

Barrett
Campaign: $3 million
Outside Groups: $6 million

Also, could this site get any f**king slower during an election night?

Big deal.  It's not Republicans fault if Wisconsin Dems can't raise the big bucks.  And let's face it, it takes big bucks to compete in and to win elections in this era.


Good job missing the point.

That money barely influences election results?

No, that it does.

So, we've established that money influences elections. What we haven't established is why Democrats only care about that when  they're being outspent. Funny how there's an inverse relationship btwn Democrats' level of concern about $ in politics & how much they have to spend.

Do stop being a hack.
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« Reply #620 on: June 06, 2012, 01:56:30 pm »
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Do stop being a hack.

Is this what you do when you can't make a coherent argument? Start calling people hacks and asking them to change their avators? It's always fun figuring out who to avoid like the plague around here.

Every bit of what you said is subjective and, quite frankly, completely rude.  Most Democrats (or at least, the ones that aren't corporate pets) support limiting campaign contributions.  Unfortunately, the Supreme Court threw that out.  Democrats don't just complain whenever they're outspent, so stop with the partisan hackery.
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« Reply #621 on: June 06, 2012, 01:58:56 pm »
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i fell like that i need to say this can we stop arguing
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krazen1211
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« Reply #622 on: June 06, 2012, 02:00:52 pm »
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What matters is we took the Senate...
So you spent between 50 and 100 million dollars and you get to "pretend" to have control of the Wisconsin State Senate for 5 months.  Wow.

I hardly think it's completely inconceivable that a bare Democratic advantage in the state senate could continue to exist after November (granted, it's distinctly unlikely on account of the gerrymandering), but admittedly it's not like this was done last year when it actually would have, well, mattered.

Districts 12 and 18 are 3/7 points, respectively, to the right of the state as a whole. Walker just 60% (probably more) in district 18. Good luck.

Incidentally the state senate redistricting was really not that skillful. The state assembly redistricting, which baconstrips swingy suburban Milwaukee County into Waukesha County, was.
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« Reply #623 on: June 06, 2012, 02:02:33 pm »
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Do stop being a hack.

Is this what you do when you can't make a coherent argument? Start calling people hacks and asking them to change their avators? It's always fun figuring out who to avoid like the plague around here.

Every bit of what you said is subjective and, quite frankly, completely rude.  Most Democrats (or at least, the ones that aren't corporate pets) support limiting campaign contributions.  Unfortunately, the Supreme Court threw that out.  Democrats don't just complain whenever they're outspent, so stop with the partisan hackery.


Haha - ok, I'll make sure not to point out Democratic hypocrisy in the future, all because you called me a hack. But seriously, go sleep it off or something. Sounds like you're still a little down about last night. Don't worry, you'll forget all about the recall soon :p

Uh, you're the one making the rude comments.  Try looking back.  You are the one being a sore winner, and that is clear in your comments.

Turn the computer off and go outside, little child.
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« Reply #624 on: June 06, 2012, 02:10:49 pm »
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Do stop being a hack.

Is this what you do when you can't make a coherent argument? Start calling people hacks and asking them to change their avators? It's always fun figuring out who to avoid like the plague around here.

Every bit of what you said is subjective and, quite frankly, completely rude.  Most Democrats (or at least, the ones that aren't corporate pets) support limiting campaign contributions.  Unfortunately, the Supreme Court threw that out.  Democrats don't just complain whenever they're outspent, so stop with the partisan hackery.


Haha - ok, I'll make sure not to point out Democratic hypocrisy in the future, all because you called me a hack. But seriously, go sleep it off or something. Sounds like you're still a little down about last night. Don't worry, you'll forget all about the recall soon :p

Uh, you're the one making the rude comments.  Try looking back.  You are the one being a sore winner, and that is clear in your comments.

Turn the computer off and go outside, little child.

I was replying to a post you made about how money matters in elections. I replied by asking you if you felt the same way when Obama had all the money. You replied by calling me a hack. Dude, you have problems.

You said absolutely nothing about Obama in your post, so now you're just lying.

What you don't seem to get is there used to be limits on how much corporations and individuals could give to candidates.  Now there are not.   2012 is very different from 2008.
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