Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 20, 2014, 03:06:18 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Don't forget to get your 2013 Gubernatorial Endorsements and Predictions in!

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Discussion
| |-+  Religion & Philosophy (Moderator: Gustaf)
| | |-+  Could God be this Cruel?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Poll
Question: Could God be this Cruel?
God does what must be done.   -4 (36.4%)
No, God would never do this.   -7 (63.6%)
Show Pie Chart
Total Voters: 11

Author Topic: Could God be this Cruel?  (Read 999 times)
Teddy (IDS Legislator)
nickjbor
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8319
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -1.42, S: -1.91

View Profile WWW
« on: November 17, 2011, 03:30:54 pm »
Ignore

Imagine for a moment you were immortal. Your body could not be broken. Your skin can not be pierced.

You can still, for example, drown... but you wont die. You would fall into the water, your lungs would take in water, you would be in pain, but, you would not die. You could also be in space, and not die, or on fire, and not die.

Now, lets say I wanted to torture you. I thus, toss you into the sun. Thousands of degrees of heat... or is it Millions? Well it's very hot regardless. The gravity would pull you down and the pressure would crush you. You would be in endless burning pain, never to be able to escape until the sun burns out in billions of years.

This is crazy right? How could I do such a thing? What kind of terrible person can I be to think of doing this. What kind of horrible person would wish this upon someone?

Well. When I think of this, I think of descriptions of Hell. Eternal torture, pain and suffering.

This is where I like to point out the second half of John 3:16 says that anyone who doubts Jesus goes to hell.

Thus I pose the question: Could God be this Cruel?
Logged

TEDDY - ARKANSAS - IDS - Liberal Whip



Note to self: use brain more.
Insula Dei
belgiansocialist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4233
Belgium


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2011, 03:37:06 pm »
Ignore

The concept of hell, in as far as it is worked out in classic theology, usually just winds up being 'deprivation of God's presence' or something along those lines anyway. (Heaven then obviously being the 'joyful contemplation of God').
Logged

Christmas Bushie 2014
BushOklahoma
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 21946
Kenya


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2011, 04:03:05 pm »
Ignore

Imagine for a moment you were immortal. Your body could not be broken. Your skin can not be pierced.

You can still, for example, drown... but you wont die. You would fall into the water, your lungs would take in water, you would be in pain, but, you would not die. You could also be in space, and not die, or on fire, and not die.

Now, lets say I wanted to torture you. I thus, toss you into the sun. Thousands of degrees of heat... or is it Millions? Well it's very hot regardless. The gravity would pull you down and the pressure would crush you. You would be in endless burning pain, never to be able to escape until the sun burns out in billions of years.

This is crazy right? How could I do such a thing? What kind of terrible person can I be to think of doing this. What kind of horrible person would wish this upon someone?

Well. When I think of this, I think of descriptions of Hell. Eternal torture, pain and suffering.

This is where I like to point out the second half of John 3:16 says that anyone who doubts Jesus goes to hell.

Thus I pose the question: Could God be this Cruel?

It's not cruelty, it's justice.  Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" and Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."  The Bible also refers to hell as a place where "the worm dieth not".  This scenario of torture you are bringing up is what hell is like, except millions of times worse.  However, for those who are believers in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:1 offers this "There is therefore now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

God is not only a loving God, but He is a just God.  He is not some cosmic push-over as the world likes to portray, He will one day deal with sin decisively and with finality.
Logged

My earlier comment notwithstanding, I do think that the site would be better off if Inks left his position. (The fact that the village idiot has dropped in to express his support for him only confirms this.)
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
John Dibble
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18787
Japan


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2011, 04:09:02 pm »
Ignore

I don't believe in God, but such evil seems to be in character for the deity depicted in the Bible.

Quote
It's not cruelty, it's justice.  Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"

How exactly is it just to torment someone for failing to meet a standard that they can't possibly meet? That's like beating up a retarded kid for not being able to understand quantum physics.
Logged

Lucius Quintus Cincinatus Lamar
amcculloum
Full Member
***
Posts: 116


Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: 4.00

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 04:17:18 pm »
Ignore


This is where I like to point out the second half of John 3:16 says that anyone who doubts Jesus goes to hell.


1) The second half of John 3:16 says "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life", not "whoever doubts in him shall not live but be eternally damned."  These are different concepts, so I don't believe your characterization of this verse is accurate.

2) CS Lewis has a chapter on hell in The Problem with Pain.  Not sure it was exactly orthodox Christian thought, but interesting nonetheless.  He essentially stated the being banished to hell meant destruction, instead of eternal torment.

3) The "fires of hell" may not mean literal fire, but could mean metaphorical.  As Belgiansocialist pointed out, many theologians have referred to the torment of hell as being deprived from God's presence, as opposed to a medieval torture chamber.  It would seem to be more like being forever separated from your closest family member, not physical pain as much as intense feelings of loss and regret.

4) As the Christian God is often described as a just God, it is not about having a moment of doubt and being punished for it for all time.  Those condemned to hell are confirmed as evil due to their hatred of God.
Logged
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18305
United States


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2011, 04:27:16 pm »
Ignore

...I think of descriptions of Hell.  Eternal torture, pain and suffering.

Col 3:1 "...set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God."
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
opebo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 47609


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2011, 05:16:05 pm »
Ignore

Boys its all nonsense, don't concern yourselves.  I suggest you watch Father Ted.
Logged

The essence of democracy at its purest is a lynch mob

realisticidealist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6633
Vatican City State


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2011, 05:59:42 pm »
Ignore

Hell is eternal death, not eternal dying, just as heaven is eternal life, not eternal living. Big distinctions.
Logged

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return."
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18305
United States


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2011, 06:05:28 pm »
Ignore

Hell is eternal death, not eternal dying, just as heaven is eternal life, not eternal living. Big distinctions.



Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:9 If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
realisticidealist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6633
Vatican City State


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2011, 10:07:33 pm »
Ignore

Hell is eternal death, not eternal dying, just as heaven is eternal life, not eternal living. Big distinctions.



Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:9 If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

Using Revelation as evidence on the nature of hell is a bit...problematic.
Logged

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return."
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18305
United States


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2011, 10:23:40 pm »
Ignore

Using Revelation as evidence on the nature of hell is a bit...problematic.

well, if you think Revelation needs a second witness, then will Christ do as a witness?

Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

so, both Revelation and Jesus say the cursed will go down into the same fire the devil and demons will go into.
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Governor TJ
TJ in Cleve
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4960
United States


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2011, 10:45:19 pm »
Ignore

As jmfcst points out, there's not exactly a shortage of scriptural references to hell.
Logged

realisticidealist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6633
Vatican City State


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2011, 11:02:07 pm »
Ignore

As jmfcst points out, there's not exactly a shortage of scriptural references to hell.

Well yeah, that's not really in question. Hell exists; it's just a matter of what Hell is.
Logged

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return."
Teddy (IDS Legislator)
nickjbor
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8319
Canada


Political Matrix
E: -1.42, S: -1.91

View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2011, 11:41:06 pm »
Ignore

Pain
Logged

TEDDY - ARKANSAS - IDS - Liberal Whip



Note to self: use brain more.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18305
United States


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2011, 12:54:19 am »
Ignore

As jmfcst points out, there's not exactly a shortage of scriptural references to hell.

doesn't matter how many verses are quoted, nor does it matter how descriptive the verses are...some people just refuse to acknowledged things they can't accept, which is why more atheist than Christians agree with my interpretation of scripture.

pretty much the same with the scripture's teaching regarding homosexuality.

there's not much use in arguing over what the scripture says when some people refuse to acknowledge what it is saying
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
aves terra
Rookie
*
Posts: 24


Political Matrix
E: 1.68, S: -7.30

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2011, 02:05:33 am »
Ignore

I don't know.  If there was a god and it had the power to do such things I suppose its possible it could be so removed from any kind of human sense of morality that it'd be capable of what you described.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 02:11:06 am by aves terra »Logged
The Mikado
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 14461


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2011, 04:41:09 pm »
Ignore

Voltaire's Candide has a Turkish naval captain say about his Sultan, "Does His Majesty care if the rats on board are comfortable?"  The logic applies much more to the Creator of the Universe.
Logged

Einzige is a poltroon who cowardly turns down duel challenges he should be honor-bound to accept. The Code Duello authorizes you to mock and belittle such a pathetic honorless scoundrel.
pbrower2a
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 10212
United States


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2011, 11:26:25 pm »
Ignore

Hell is eternal death, not eternal dying, just as heaven is eternal life, not eternal living. Big distinctions.



Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:9 If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

Using Revelation as evidence on the nature of hell is a bit...problematic.

Revelation seems increasingly to have the smell of false prophecy. It is highly unlikely that it would ever be the introduction that one gets to Christianity.

If God cannot forgive, then there is no hope for anyone. Receiving the mark of the Beast? What if that mark is received under duress? Or under overpowering force, as in tattoos upon people in Nazi concentration camps? A just God might forgive those who receive those tattoos but not the Nazis who impose them.

If God can forgive, then surely He has the power to remove the mark. It might be more fitting that those who put the mark of the Beast upon people or make its acceptance necessary for survival (as in getting food rations or avoiding some swifter martyrdom) would go to eternal damnation.

   

Logged



Your political compass

Economic Left/Right: -7.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49
Gustaf
Moderator
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 26901


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2011, 07:21:47 pm »

Boys its all nonsense, don't concern yourselves.  I suggest you watch Father Ted.

I'd have thought Father Tucker to be more your cup of tea?
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines