we actually might be witnessing the death of socialism!

[ingemann]

I happen to disagree, right now it looks like the left will win the next elections in Germany, France and Italy, yes Spain and Greece may be lost for the next decade, but it's still a rather good trade for the European left. Ironic Cameron may also have saved the left in UK by winning the last election and in general behaving like a bull in a China shop. The idea that a few minor losses are the death of socialism is a rather optimistic. In fact from where I stand right now things the 2010ties look more like it will be for the right that the seventies was for the left, a decade of where overly ivory tower ideology which alienated the vast majority of the population.

[ingemann]

I happen to disagree, right now it looks like the left will win the next elections in Germany, France and Italy, yes Spain and Greece may be lost for the next decade, but it's still a rather good trade for the European left. Ironic Cameron may also have saved the left in UK by winning the last election and in general behaving like a bull in a China shop. The idea that a few minor losses are the death of socialism is a rather optimistic. In fact from where I stand right now things the 2010ties look more like it will be for the right that the seventies was for the left, a decade of where overly ivory tower ideology which alienated the vast majority of the population.

I would say that a socialist being forced into austerity(which is pretty much the admission that their overspending is a failed concept) is pretty bad for socialism in the EU. And what you don't realize is that they have been resisting what will ultimately be a forced large cutback in their welfare state.

I wouldn't be to bullish on the left doing well in Europe and simultaneously remaining anything like the European left of yesteryear. You'd be in for a awful surprise.

The European left are going to be forced into doing things not even the European right had the balls to do even a couple years ago. Socialism is dying in Europe.

I'm not really sure I should take your post serious,because it's either the purest form of sarcasm I have ever seen, or a rather ignorant post. So I apologise for taking it serious if it was sarcasm.

In the early 90ties the Danish Social Democrats started an economic boom, which lasted 15 years, they took the necessary step to avoid overheating something their right-wing successor didn't. The only responsable governance Italy have had the last 15 years have been from the left, the best government Germany have had in decades was the CDU-SPD coalition (and most German governments are above average), while the SPD-Green government took brutal and responsable decisions something which strengthen the far left (in fact if SPD hadn't hated the communist so much they could have continued their government), but still in two years SPD will likely regain power. The European left have taken the hard decision for decades sometimes they have been rewarded and sometimes punished, but it has survived and thrieved, and when it was punished its voters didn't vote to the right but moved to the left.

[ingemann]

I'm not really sure I should take your post serious,because it's either the purest form of sarcasm I have ever seen, or a rather ignorant post. So I apologise for taking it serious if it was sarcasm.

In the early 90ties the Danish Social Democrats started an economic boom, which lasted 15 years, they took the necessary step to avoid overheating something their right-wing successor didn't. The only responsable governance Italy have had the last 15 years have been from the left, the best government Germany have had in decades was the CDU-SPD coalition (and most German governments are above average), while the SPD-Green government took brutal and responsable decisions something which strengthen the far left (in fact if SPD hadn't hated the communist so much they could have continued their government), but still in two years SPD will likely regain power. The European left have taken the hard decision for decades sometimes they have been rewarded and sometimes punished, but it has survived and thrieved, and when it was punished its voters didn't vote to the right but moved to the left.

Putting your analysis to the side here, what does your post have to with mine in any way?

Europe will be forced into making some rather large cut backs to their government spending. Feel free to disagree with that, but if you do its you people shouldn't take seriously.

Or are you trying to say that the European left are for reducing government spending by large amounts if they weren't forced into doing so?

I say the European left tend to look at the economic effect of growing or reducing government rather than looking to ideology, in 1993 the Danish SocDem lowered taxes, they sold several state owned companies and in general put increased prosperity over ideology. SPD in Germany reduced the wages of the workers in a attempt to reduce the chronic unemployment (primary in the former DDR), the left-wing government of Italy in the 90ties created the biggest surpluses on the state's budget since WWII.

[ingemann]

I'm not really sure I should take your post serious,because it's either the purest form of sarcasm I have ever seen, or a rather ignorant post. So I apologise for taking it serious if it was sarcasm.

It emerged on another thread that Wonkish had not heard of Willy Brandt before. I'll let that sink in for a moment...

I must say I'm impressed

I said that I had heard of him, but couldn't remember which of numerous leaders he was. When you tend to read about other countries political history sometimes the names get melded together and you can't identify who's who after a while. You have to admit though the average American has no clue about European political history at all. I'm much better than the vast majority of Americans on this front.

What would say to a poster who claimed to be expert on the Republican party, who didn't know who Ronald Reagan were? Willy Brandt are maybe the most well known European Social Democrat after the war. I suggest if you want to pretend to be expert on socialism or the Left, that you use wikipedia to read about people whose name is mentioned in the discussion, it won't make you a expert, but it will make you look less ridiculous.

[ingemann]

The European left is in a bit of a crisis. The Right sold out their ideology decades ago, but the left is still not used to it.

As most left parties has dropped rather important ideological part of their party program; like nationalisation of industry and a democratic socialist revolution, the left have dropped these ideas decades ago. While the right on the other hand run keep their main beliefs like privatisation of everything and tax cuts. I have a hard time agreing with you. In fact the right in most European countries have grown even more ideological.