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Author Topic: Just some food for thought.  (Read 4281 times)
Tender Branson
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« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2011, 05:02:19 am »
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Austria had a left-wing government in 2000 ? That's new to me.

I always thought it had a VP-FP government ... Tongue

And it doesn't have a left-wing government now either, but a centrist one (SPVP).
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« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2011, 06:59:13 am »

A friend of mine noted something that I slipped by me at first: France is clearly the wrong color in the 2000 map unless they are foolishly counting Jospin as proof of a leftist government.

In a cohabitation system, the PM becomes the dominant domestic policy figure and the presidentialist system finds itself transformed into a parliamentary system. It's quite correct to judge France as left in 2000, because domestic policy was made by a left-wing government. Unless you're arguing from a 'Jospin is not a left-winger' mode.
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« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2011, 07:39:53 am »
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Britain is not about to elect a left-wing government, now, or in 2015.  Ed Miliband is unelectable.
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« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2011, 07:53:32 am »
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Britain is not about to elect a left-wing government, now, or in 2015.

As the Green Party is only polling about 2-3% at the moment, I agree.
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« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2011, 08:16:55 am »
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The image that started this thread is classing any social democrat-turn-neoliberal as left-wing, and Britain would, would've and has elected governments to the left of that.

Don't really buy that Ed Miliband is unelectable, though. He just needs to shore up the already superior vote with attractive policies - something I'm guessing is not forthcoming - rather than relying on Blair/Cameron/Cleggite charisma. We've elected many an uncharismatic politician before.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 08:20:25 am by Leftbehind »Logged

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« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2011, 09:06:12 am »
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Fire away.  Wink



it would have been better to see not only UE-nations but all european countries
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« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2011, 09:08:14 am »
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France, Italy and Germany should turn red soon...



france ? left gain 40 % in all presidential elections since 1995

italy ? left is out of play

germany ? spd is in ruins
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« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2011, 10:10:13 am »
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A friend of mine noted something that I slipped by me at first: France is clearly the wrong color in the 2000 map unless they are foolishly counting Jospin as proof of a leftist government.

In a cohabitation system, the PM becomes the dominant domestic policy figure and the presidentialist system finds itself transformed into a parliamentary system. It's quite correct to judge France as left in 2000, because domestic policy was made by a left-wing government. Unless you're arguing from a 'Jospin is not a left-winger' mode.

Fair enough.
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« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2011, 12:16:27 pm »
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Fire away.  Wink
If only we had a map for 2015, things would be so much better.  I really hope Ed Miliband either steps down or gets kicked out to make way for someone more electable (and no, not his brother.  Values count too.)  Unlikely to happen, I know.  I have a feeling that Labour won't be back in power until it's led by someone in the post-Blair/Brown generation, aka people elected either in 2010 or later (Chukka Umunna, Stella Creasy, Rachel Reeves, etc.).  And Greece and Spain aren't exactly embracing the right with complete love and admiration, lest we forget. 
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« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2011, 12:31:42 pm »
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France, Italy and Germany should turn red soon...



france ? left gain 40 % in all presidential elections since 1995

italy ? left is out of play

germany ? spd is in ruins

Have you paid attention to the electoral evolutions of these countries ? The left winning commandingly in every single poll since over a year.
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« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2011, 01:42:17 pm »
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The first map, I didn't realise that President Chirac was so left-wing.

And would it be fair to say that the Irish government is slightly more left-wing today (Labour) than it was 10 years ago?

And yes, wait for France 2012, Germany 2013 and whenever Italy has their next election...

And on Ed Miliband, Mariano Rajoy was meant to be unelectable as well until the government messed up.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 01:57:42 pm by Drunk Rick Perry »Logged

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« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2011, 01:53:07 pm »
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And would it be fair to say that the Irish government is slightly more left-wing today (Labour) than it was 10 years ago?

Labour may be in government, but they're subordinate to a larger party who are economically further to the right than Fianna Fil were (and I'm not referring to the CDU). I would say myself that it all balances out.
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« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2011, 02:04:25 pm »
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Remember too that what is "right wing" in Stockholm would be "left wing" in Houston.
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« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2011, 02:06:15 pm »
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The first map, I didn't realise that President Chirac was so left-wing.


Hash pointed out on the last page why it isn't necessarily incorrect to consider the government left wing in 2000 since Jospin was Prime Minister and set the domestic agenda.
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« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2011, 09:16:02 am »
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Remember too that what is "right wing" in Stockholm would be "left wing" in Houston.

Yeah. Of all those right-wing governments, which one would actually be right-wing by US standards? Any? Which one is the most right-wing? Still the Tories, even with Cameron? I'm unsure, need to think a bit.
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« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2011, 09:34:20 am »
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Poland is the only country in europe with really right-wing parties.
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« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2011, 10:12:57 am »
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In many ways the current government surpasses Thatcher in its support for neoliberalism, so there's no doubt it'd be considered right-wing in any country, and since the Tories have largely been aping the Republicans for the past thirty years, I don't really get how they'd go unconsidered (but OMG they support gay marriage, so that must make them centrist!).
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« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2011, 11:08:42 am »
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In many ways the current government surpasses Thatcher in its support for neoliberalism, so there's no doubt it'd be considered right-wing in any country, and since the Tories have largely been aping the Republicans for the past thirty years, I don't really get how they'd go unconsidered (but OMG they support gay marriage, so that must make them centrist!).

That might be part of it; from a North American perspective the British tories are rather socially liberal... when compared to the CDN Tories, AUS Liberals or in particular the Republicans... many are bible breathing radicals who to this day are very socially conservative. While we would see centrists as those who are Free market neoliberals but balanced with that liking gays and immigrants side and see, they also don't see the government as the devil (like CDN Liberals or Democrats)

What would really be interesting to compare would be the decline of the moderate, centrist parites... look at the CDN Liberals, LD's in the UK, FDP in Germany, MD in France... the world seems to be less willing to support middle-of-the-roaders now a days.
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« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2011, 01:47:29 pm »

The MoDem would be doing far better if it wasn't some useless personality cult founded for and by an incompetent douchebag whose only purpose is to whine and complain about how everybody is bad and how, therefore, he is so great because he's not like everybody else but has no ideology otherwise. And the French centre has room to grow if it wasn't divided into 6 million rival parties whose only members are boring regional barons who think they're all presidential material.
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« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2011, 04:18:35 pm »
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Remember too that what is "right wing" in Stockholm would be "left wing" in Houston.

Yeah. Of all those right-wing governments, which one would actually be right-wing by US standards? Any? Which one is the most right-wing? Still the Tories, even with Cameron? I'm unsure, need to think a bit.

I think the Spanish, British, Irish, Austrian (FP), Swiss (SVP) and Eastern European right-wings would be in majority GOP. Part of the French, German and Italian ones too (anti-immigration stooges, harsh law-and-order guys or neoliberal hacks). The scandinavian right is most certainly democrat, so are probably the French and German mainstreams. Don't know Greece and Portugal enough to tell.


The MoDem would be doing far better if it wasn't some useless personality cult founded for and by an incompetent douchebag whose only purpose is to whine and complain about how everybody is bad and how, therefore, he is so great because he's not like everybody else but has no ideology otherwise. And the French centre has room to grow if it wasn't divided into 6 million rival parties whose only members are boring regional barons who think they're all presidential material.

Yeah, UDF's explosion turned out to be a real catastrophe for the French centre-right. Hopefully Sarko's rout in 2012 will push centrists to organize more efficiently and make the UMP more appealing to them.
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« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2011, 05:56:10 pm »
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Remember too that what is "right wing" in Stockholm would be "left wing" in Houston.

Yeah. Of all those right-wing governments, which one would actually be right-wing by US standards? Any? Which one is the most right-wing? Still the Tories, even with Cameron? I'm unsure, need to think a bit.

I think the Spanish, British, Irish, Austrian (FP), Swiss (SVP) and Eastern European right-wings would be in majority GOP.

Ireland: Fianna Fil would largely be socially-conservative (by American standards) but economically-moderate. Think old-style rust-belt machine Democrats.

Fine Gael would have a contingent of the same sort, but might tend more towards country-club Republicanism, although there is a very economically right-wing and authoritarian element lurking in the youth wing and in parts of the backwoods (see here for a current example).

Few if any Irish politicians, though, would admit to being GOP supporters.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 06:02:58 pm by ObserverIE »Logged

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« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2011, 06:27:56 pm »
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Comparisons of non-American parties to American ones are problematic, of course, but the Irish political system is reasonably similar to the American system of old in that the parties are differentiated primarily by Civil War allegiance rather than ideology. One major difference is that Fianna Fil is a traditional government party, to which the United States has no analog.
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« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2011, 10:03:01 am »
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[quote author=Meno male che Silvio non c' pi ! link=topic=144115.msg3095925#msg3095925
Have you paid attention to the electoral evolutions of these countries ? The left winning commandingly in every single poll since over a year.
[/quote]

He has a points when it comes to Germany though, sadly.

The fact that we rule Europe know and can implement our agenda on other people greatly helps Merkel with her right wing.
On the other hand, while my party has recovered to 29-30%, this is just not enough. Ideologically, we are still dead. The fact that 6-7% of Germans (mostly leftwingers) consider voting for a joke party makes that very clear.
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« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2011, 11:33:36 am »
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Yes, I know this has little to do with the topic at hand of change of governing parties in Europe, but just for contrast I made this Tongue

Blue is right wing, red is left wing.



South America 2000




South America 2011




I didn't color Suriname and Guyana because I have no idea what kind of governments they had and I'm too lazy to do the research. They are unimportant however Grin

Yes, I know it's difficult to pin down a real ideology on a lot of these countries and some of them are hybrids or simple populists, but whatever, it's close enough Tongue
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« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2011, 11:54:48 am »
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... to help, it looks like Suriname and Guyana would be Red (since the ruling party includes the former dictator who in the 80s set up a socalist republic?... but i don't know much about Suriname, best guess here) but Guyana heads to the polls this month so that might change. Meaning only Columbia and Chile have Right & Centre-right governments
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