CBO: Obama Stimulus Package Added 3.3 Million Jobs (user search)
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  CBO: Obama Stimulus Package Added 3.3 Million Jobs (search mode)
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Author Topic: CBO: Obama Stimulus Package Added 3.3 Million Jobs  (Read 6521 times)
Link
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Posts: 3,426
« on: November 22, 2011, 08:26:02 PM »


Love that this is the attitude you people have toward the CBO; essentially our real-world version of Atlasia's "Game Moderator." You cannot dismiss reality when it doesn't suit you.

No wonder some of you want to abolish it.

Well first of all since the CBO doesn't acknowledge the existence of the bond market in this analysis than yeahthan  their number isn't worth the paper its printed on.

After the stimulus the appetite for US government debt increased and our borrowing costs dropped to an all time low.  How would you like the CBO to adjust its numbers?

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Link
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Posts: 3,426
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2011, 08:47:44 PM »

After the stimulus the appetite for US government debt increased and our borrowing costs dropped to an all time low.  How would you like the CBO to adjust its numbers?



Of course there is high appetite for treasuries they are seen as not having a default risk. That has no bearing on the criticism I just made.

People that buy treasuries would have bought some other asset if the supply wasn't increased so much. The CBO doesn't acknowledge that this most basic fact is true.

I just don't understand how the current activities in the bond market post stimulus invalidate the CBOs numbers.
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Link
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Posts: 3,426
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2011, 11:25:12 AM »
« Edited: November 23, 2011, 11:29:03 AM by Link »

Even taking the CBO numbers as gospel, that's over $240,000 per job!  Not exactly a number to be crowing about.

After the stimulus the appetite for US government debt increased and our borrowing costs dropped to an all time low.  How would you like the CBO to adjust its numbers?



Of course there is high appetite for treasuries they are seen as not having a default risk. That has no bearing on the criticism I just made.

People that buy treasuries would have bought some other asset if the supply wasn't increased so much. The CBO doesn't acknowledge that this most basic fact is true.

I just don't understand how the current activities in the bond market post stimulus invalidate the CBOs numbers.

What he is saying is that if the money used to buy $800 billion of treasuries had been used for other purposes, it would have created jobs as well.  And considering that the CBO numbers have each of those stimulus provided jobs costing so much I find it hard to believe it couldn't have done as good a job at creating jobs elsewhere.

Nailed it. But I'm more than willing to go through this from a capital flow perspective and show indisputably that this has to be the case.

Interest rates aka the price of money has absolutely zero to do with understanding this issue. All the interest rate shows is the risk free rate + duration + default risk. The price of money doesn't change the available capital for particular capital expenditures. It just shows the demand for one fixed income asset class vs. another.

Mighty big "if," True Federalist.  Let's see what the stimulatory investments the private sector has been making with the capital it does have...





Maybe they are building up cash positions because they are afraid they may not have access to the capital markets...



nope.  Looks like the quality corporates have access to all the capital any of them would reasonably need.  I am baffled by all the crowing I've been hearing for months about how we need tax breaks for "job creators" and corporates are being "crowded out."  I would say the same thing to corporates and 1%ers that I would say to a three year old with a big slice of cake.  Finish what you have first and then we will see if you need more.  Colgate and P&G have had no problems funding themselves with 3 year bond deals priced at 0.6%.  I keep reading about corporates doing record breaking bond deals and at the same time people are saying they are getting crowded out of the bond market?!    If your business can't turn a profit with financing costs of 0.6%, blame yourself.



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Link
Sr. Member
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Posts: 3,426
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2011, 03:56:06 PM »

I've generally taken CBO estimates with a grain of salt.  Each side trots them out when it suits them and the numbers don't always hold up.  Not that the calculations are wrong or malicious or biased...just that $hit happens and modeling that stuff is inherently tricky.

That said...Sun Myung Moon's single ply is a reliable source but Politico is not...I guess reliable now means...agrees with ALLCAPSNAME, eh?

This I agree with.  Economic forcasts are notoriously unreliable.  And even calculating what the economic effect of a particular action in the past is pretty tricky.  Having said that I think the CBO numbers are some of the best we have.  I trust them a lot more than numbers generated by the RNC, DNC, or the Heritage Foundation.

I was actually quite surprised when the Obama White House made a prediction about where unemployment was going to level out.  No one has accurately predicted the unemployment numbers under any president in my lifetime.  Anyone attempting to put out a firm number is silly.  Anyone taking that number seriously is insane.
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Link
Sr. Member
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Posts: 3,426
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2011, 04:10:52 PM »

Again you don't understand the concept of the marginal dollar or marginal investor. And when I offered to explain it you clearly are passing so what do you expect.

Or do you just prefer to post ignorant posts and hope that I don't actually show why everything you just posted is meaningless.

Often on these threads I find that the point in contention is not clearly defined and that all the facts are not presented up front... if at all.  If you think the facts that I have presented are meaningless you are perfectly free to post your facts and attempt to prove your point.  It is a two way street.  Everyone is allowed to argue their point of view.  You may think your point of view is "indisputable" but you certainly haven't proved that to us.  What I posted is my point of view.  I, unlike you, do not think it is "indisputable."  I arrived at my conclusion based on the best evidence I have at the moment.  If some other new information comes along that sheds new light on the situation I am perfectly open to changing my view.  To me it just seems strange that people that are stockpiling record amounts of cash and bidding gold (an almost completely useless asset) into the stratosphere would ask for even more cash before they will invest the cash they already have.
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Link
Sr. Member
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Posts: 3,426
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2011, 11:49:36 AM »

I've generally taken CBO estimates with a grain of salt.  Each side trots them out when it suits them and the numbers don't always hold up.  Not that the calculations are wrong or malicious or biased...just that $hit happens and modeling that stuff is inherently tricky.

That said...Sun Myung Moon's single ply is a reliable source but Politico is not...I guess reliable now means...agrees with ALLCAPSNAME, eh?

Finally, another source for you to attack:
 
IBD Editorials

The CBO Quietly Downgrades Obama's $825 Bil Stimulus

Posted 11/23/2011

Recovery: After nearly all the stimulus money has been spent, the Congressional Budget Office now admits it cost more than advertised, did less to boost growth and will hurt the economy in the long run.

http://news.investors.com/ArticlePrint.aspx?id=592709&p=1



No problem.  The editorial pages of the Investors Business Daily are a known haunt of mindless lying partisan hacks.  Observe...



How exactly does the CBO "quietly downgrade" an economic assessment?  From my experience government agencies routinely put out economic reports and do multiple revisions of their numbers as more data becomes available.  They have released their information in the same manner throughout my lifetime regardless of who is in the White House.  Basically the CBO released a revised estimate in the usual manner and IBD just threw in the words "quietly," "downgrade," "hurt," and "admit" to make it spicy for the conservative palate.
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