SENATE BILL: Ratification Regionalization Amendment (sent to regions)
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  SENATE BILL: Ratification Regionalization Amendment (sent to regions)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Ratification Regionalization Amendment (sent to regions)  (Read 3642 times)
bgwah
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« on: November 24, 2011, 03:12:23 AM »
« edited: December 08, 2011, 12:47:52 AM by bgwah »

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Napoleon
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2011, 02:46:17 PM »

I can support this one.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2011, 07:35:51 PM »

The governor signing it is all that will be needed to ratify an amendment? I'm not sure I can get behind that one.
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Nathan
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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2011, 09:32:05 PM »

Yes, remove or heavily modify 2c. It might be good to allow Regions to give their Governors some say in this through some other mechanism--perhaps giving them the option of whether or not to allow a gubernatorial veto of an amendment ratified by referendum or by the legislature?--but a Governor being able to unilaterally ratify a Constitutional amendment in the name of his or her Region does not sit well with me.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2011, 04:59:31 PM »
« Edited: November 25, 2011, 05:02:35 PM by Senator North Carolina Yankee »

I offer the following amendments and one of the two conditional amendments based on whether the first is adopted or not:

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And if the above passes:

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And if not:
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2011, 05:11:27 PM »

Granted, if the legislature passes it and the governor signs the amendment, I would live with that, but not the governor passing it unilaterally without any input from the legislature.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2011, 05:30:43 PM »

Really?

I always believed that our most important legal document can be amended only with consent of the people. Legislatures? Only if they all are universal legislatures like in Midwest, which is not going to happen. Gubernatorial signature? Ratyfing or rejecting an amendment on behalf of the region by just one person? Really?

Regional rights? Constitution is a federal matter so I couldn't care less.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2011, 07:31:38 PM »

How is this at all preferable to holding a nationwide referendum?
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2011, 09:20:43 PM »

How is this at all preferable to holding a nationwide referendum?

Our current system is a one-off procedure and delightfully dull.

Really?

I always believed that our most important legal document can be amended only with consent of the people. Legislatures? Only if they all are universal legislatures like in Midwest, which is not going to happen. Gubernatorial signature? Ratyfing or rejecting an amendment on behalf of the region by just one person? Really?

Regional rights? Constitution is a federal matter so I couldn't care less.

So long as ratification of Amendments is done on some sort of regional breakdown, regions certainly deserve some sort of say. Currently, Amendments exist in this weird silly little middle ground, where it's kind of regional, but kind of national, and always a complete one-off procedure that requires passage through the Senate again if that Amendment is ever to be voted on again. I think we should either go all-out with ratification and make it a more regional matter, or go all-out with ratification and make it an entirely national referendum, with a set percentage of votes for ratification.

But either way, I really dislike the current way Amendments just sort of disappear if they fail ratification. For all the talk of people claiming Atlasia should be based on the US, that's not actually how the US ratifies Amendments. If we wanted to ratify something that passed a century ago, we still totally could. I think that, at least could be interesting here.

Granted, if the legislature passes it and the governor signs the amendment, I would live with that, but not the governor passing it unilaterally without any input from the legislature.

I'm open to changing that.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2011, 09:29:10 PM »

How is this at all preferable to holding a nationwide referendum?

Our current system is a one-off procedure and delightfully dull.

Is it the same one we had a couple years ago? That one is awful, too, of course.
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shua
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2011, 12:32:34 AM »

why would the regions be limited in the threshold needed for a popular vote? that is a peculiar lack of latitude given the other options allowed.   

3 is problematic, as it will keep from correcting unforeseen problems.  the language is ambiguous also - may the changes by made by a popular vote or regional constitutional amendment more often than 60 days? I think generally, this should be a constitutional rather than mere legislative item for the regions with a working constitution.

another suggestion: allow regions to decide procedure issues on the vote, such as how long the booth is open and whether a person may change their vote, whether a quorum much be reached, etc.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2011, 12:45:36 AM »

why would the regions be limited in the threshold needed for a popular vote? that is a peculiar lack of latitude given the other options allowed.

I don't understand what this complain is trying to get at, sorry. Could you clarify?

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..What? I'm sorry, again, I feel like you're not understanding something here. 3 is designed to keep regional legislatures from abruptly changing the ratification procedure all the time if the current ratification procedure didn't lead to an outcome of their liking. Do you understand what this Amendment is doing? That is an honest and genuine question. I'm not entirely sure what's ambiguous about it.

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Why should that be the case? Not that I'm necessarily opposed, but, this is treading dangerously close to just also allowing regions to outright restrict votes. A quorum, specifically, seems like an unfair thing to institute. I'm certainly in favor of allowing regions to tinker with their own ratification procedure, but there must still be some standard of fairness.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2011, 12:46:22 AM »

I offer the following amendments and one of the two conditional amendments based on whether the first is adopted or not:

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And if the above passes:

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And if not:
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I'll accept the first two as friendly. Not the last.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2011, 12:52:54 AM »

Well if the first one passes, the third one goes bye bye anyway. Tongue
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2011, 12:53:21 AM »

Well if the first one passes, the third one goes bye bye anyway. Tongue

Acceptable. Tongue
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Napoleon
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2011, 03:40:39 AM »

why would the regions be limited in the threshold needed for a popular vote? that is a peculiar lack of latitude given the other options allowed.

I don't understand what this complain is trying to get at, sorry. Could you clarify?

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..What? I'm sorry, again, I feel like you're not understanding something here. 3 is designed to keep regional legislatures from abruptly changing the ratification procedure all the time if the current ratification procedure didn't lead to an outcome of their liking. Do you understand what this Amendment is doing? That is an honest and genuine question. I'm not entirely sure what's ambiguous about it.

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Why should that be the case? Not that I'm necessarily opposed, but, this is treading dangerously close to just also allowing regions to outright restrict votes. A quorum, specifically, seems like an unfair thing to institute. I'm certainly in favor of allowing regions to tinker with their own ratification procedure, but there must still be some standard of fairness.

Why limit region's to using a majority vote instead of, say,  2/3? Why would regions be able to legislate amendment ratification processes rather than making it constitutional?
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2011, 06:19:39 AM »

How is this at all preferable to holding a nationwide referendum?

I wish we'd do it, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.
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bgwah
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« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2011, 06:26:11 AM »

Can't we just try the 4/5 regions or 60% nationwide thing again? Tongue
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2011, 07:30:56 PM »

Why limit region's to using a majority vote instead of, say,  2/3?

I have no inherent problem with that being a requirement; I just think the standard of passage should be universal. Changing the procedure is one thing, but creating an artificially high barrier to passage is a bit unfair.

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I see what that means now, at least. I have no inherent problem here either, but would that really matter, that much?

Can't we just try the 4/5 regions or 60% nationwide thing again? Tongue

I'm fine with this too, but I doubt it stands a great chance of passing. Haven't we tried that like, three times? Tongue I simply thought it would be a neat idea to chance our ratification procedure to a more regional/American style, and make Amendments last forever after Senate passage. That last part, at the very least, is a reasonably uncontroversial idea, if all else fails.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2011, 07:55:11 PM »

How is this at all preferable to holding a nationwide referendum?

I wish we'd do it, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

There's no reason it can't happen, except that people are stupid and knee-jerk reactionaries.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2011, 07:59:28 PM »

How is this at all preferable to holding a nationwide referendum?

I wish we'd do it, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

There's no reason it can't happen, except that people are stupid and knee-jerk reactionaries.

Which is a perfect reason.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2011, 08:13:52 PM »

How is this at all preferable to holding a nationwide referendum?

I wish we'd do it, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

There's no reason it can't happen, except that people are stupid and knee-jerk reactionaries.

Be nice.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2011, 08:18:16 PM »

How is this at all preferable to holding a nationwide referendum?

I wish we'd do it, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

There's no reason it can't happen, except that people are stupid and knee-jerk reactionaries.

Be nice.

I'm suprised I'm going to say this, but he got a good point. While I'm far from call you stupid or reactionary, remembering your examplary senatorial service just few weeks ago, your recent record of reforms is nonexistent and I'm still waiting to understant why have you adopted such an approach.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2011, 08:27:34 PM »

How is this at all preferable to holding a nationwide referendum?

I wish we'd do it, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

There's no reason it can't happen, except that people are stupid and knee-jerk reactionaries.

Be nice.

I'm suprised I'm going to say this, but he got a good point. While I'm far from call you stupid or reactionary, remembering your examplary senatorial service just few weeks ago, your recent record of reforms is nonexistent and I'm still waiting to understant why have you adopted such an approach.

What? One of my reform ideas is on the Senate floor right now. It has probably been less than a month since an entire Constitution I created was passed. I'm offended by your comments. Marokai and Xahar's misplaced commentary isn't the word of God.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2011, 10:23:53 PM »

This isn't the side of Xahar I was nostalgic for by any means. Tongue
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