SENATE BILL: Ratification Regionalization Amendment (sent to regions)

[Kuu ülevaade olulisematest]

This isn't the side of Xahar I was nostalgic for by any means.

The reaction to my return was far too laudatory. I'm not accustomed to being well-liked, so I have to fix that somehow.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So are my amendments on the previous page going to get considered?

[bgwah]

Senators have 24 hours to object to the friendly amendments.

2. Regional governments shall choose, in accordance with their lawmaking process, from the following methods of ratification for all Constitutional Amendments:

2a. Referendum in which passage is determined by a simple majority.
2b. Passage through the lawmaking body of the Region.
2c. Signature of the Governor of said Region.

Regional governments may select a combination of the above methods as well.

2c. Signature of the Governor of said Region. Regions may not use this method, unless it is part of a process that includes either 2a or 2b also.

[Jbrase]

With the proposed amendments added, I have no objections to this amendment.

[shua]

Why limit region's to using a majority vote instead of, say,  2/3?

I have no inherent problem with that being a requirement; I just think the standard of passage should be universal. Changing the procedure is one thing, but creating an artificially high barrier to passage is a bit unfair.

How can you say the standard of passage should be universal at the same time you are saying that in some regions it could be done without a popular vote at all, or that it may require the governor's approval in one region but not in another?  The whole point of this amendment seems to be to get rid of a universal standard of passage. And our standard for passage is already artificial, since there's nothing axiomatic about saying it should require the approval of 4 regions as opposed to 3 or 5.

Why would regions be able to legislate amendment ratification processes rather than making it constitutional?

I see what that means now, at least. I have no inherent problem here either, but would that really matter, that much?
[/quote]

For those regions who require a vote by both the legislature and the people at large to change their constitution, it would be significant.  The ambiguity in the current language is this: It either means that a change to the ratification process must be made only by the legislature AND only once every sixty days, or it means the change can only be made once every sixty days IF that change is by the legislature.
But here's the key issue: Somewhere along the way, a region is going to pass a change to the ratification process that is ends up being unintentionally impractical and unworkable for one reason or another.  And so they'll just have to wait two months to fix it - by which time people might have forgotten about it. If that's a risk you're willing to take, okay, but it's worth bringing up.

another suggestion: allow regions to decide procedure issues on the vote, such as how long the booth is open and whether a person may change their vote, whether a quorum much be reached, etc.

Why should that be the case? Not that I'm necessarily opposed, but, this is treading dangerously close to just also allowing regions to outright restrict votes. A quorum, specifically, seems like an unfair thing to institute. I'm certainly in favor of allowing regions to tinker with their own ratification procedure, but there must still be some standard of fairness.

A quorum would mean that an amendment would have to be voted on (either yea, nay or abstain) by some portion of the region, ex. 1/4 of its citizens.  I don't see that as unfair - it would be protection against ratification by a very small number of people. Allowing a vote to happen over more than 7 days (that could still be the minimum number) could let more votes be included.  I think the regions are competent to decide these things while still being more fair than having some regions have a popular ratification process while others do not.

[bgwah]

The amendments have passed as friendly.

[bgwah]

I believe this is what it currently looks like now:

Ratification Regionalization Amendment

Article VII, Section 1 of the Constitution shall be amended to read the following:

1. The Senate, whenever two-thirds of its number shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of this Constitution when ratified by three-quarters of the Regions.

2. Regional governments shall choose, in accordance with their lawmaking process, from the following methods of ratification for all Constitutional Amendments:

2a. Referendum in which passage is determined by a simple majority.
2b. Passage through the lawmaking body of the Region.
2c. Signature of the Governor of said Region. Regions may not use this method, unless it is part of a process that includes either 2a or 2b also.

Regional governments may select a combination of the above methods as well.

3. Procedure for ratification of Amendments may only be changed by the lawmaking body of a region once every 60 days.

4. Regions may re-attempt or later rescind ratification of Amendments at their discretion, determined through the lawmaking body of the region, as there shall be no deadline or expiration of Constitutional Amendments passed by the Senate. Regions may not rescind ratification of Amendments that have come into full effect.

[bgwah]

The Fair Amending Procedure passed earlier this year. It was ultimately thrown out based on a technicality. But I don't think that means we should just give up on it forever and accept this instead.

Thus I'm offering the following amendment:

Fair Amending Procedure Amendment

Article VII, Section I of the Third Constitution of Atlasia is hereby amended to read:

The Senate, when two-thirds of its chamber shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of this Constitution when ratified by the people of Atlasia. In each region, a public vote shall be held regarding the ratification of a proposed amendment. Said vote shall last for exactly one week and shall be administered by the governor of the region or whichever office as the Law may provide. Citizens shall vote "aye," "nay," or "abstain" to a proposed amendment. To be ratified, the proposed amendment shall meet at least one of the following criteria:

I. Receive a simple majority in favor of the ayes (among all "aye" and "nay" votes) in at least four of the five Atlasia regions

II. Receive a three-fifths majority in favor of the ayes (among all "aye" and "nay" votes) in Atlasia at-large.

It should look familiar...

[President Marokai]

I do not accept your amendment as friendly on the grounds that this completely alters the point of the original legislation and you should bring it up separately.

[bgwah]

^Fair enough...

Senators, we're now voting on the following amendment. Please vote aye, nay, or abstain.

Fair Amending Procedure Amendment

Article VII, Section I of the Third Constitution of Atlasia is hereby amended to read:

The Senate, when two-thirds of its chamber shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of this Constitution when ratified by the people of Atlasia. In each region, a public vote shall be held regarding the ratification of a proposed amendment. Said vote shall last for exactly one week and shall be administered by the governor of the region or whichever office as the Law may provide. Citizens shall vote "aye," "nay," or "abstain" to a proposed amendment. To be ratified, the proposed amendment shall meet at least one of the following criteria:

I. Receive a simple majority in favor of the ayes (among all "aye" and "nay" votes) in at least four of the five Atlasia regions

II. Receive a three-fifths majority in favor of the ayes (among all "aye" and "nay" votes) in Atlasia at-large.

AYE.

[Senator Napoleon]

Nay

[President Marokai]

Nay

[VP Duke]

Didn't we try to pass a bill almost exclusively like the amendment being proposed? Except I wanted 2/3 at large?

Nay

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Nay

[MOP]

Nay

[There Are Some Remedies Worse Than The Disease]

Aye

[asexual trans victimologist]

Nay

[bgwah]

With 2 ayes and 6 nays the amendment has failed.

[bgwah]

Final vote. Please vote aye, nay, or abstain.

Ratification Regionalization Amendment

Article VII, Section 1 of the Constitution shall be amended to read the following:

1. The Senate, whenever two-thirds of its number shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of this Constitution when ratified by three-quarters of the Regions.

2. Regional governments shall choose, in accordance with their lawmaking process, from the following methods of ratification for all Constitutional Amendments:

2a. Referendum in which passage is determined by a simple majority.
2b. Passage through the lawmaking body of the Region.
2c. Signature of the Governor of said Region. Regions may not use this method, unless it is part of a process that includes either 2a or 2b also.

Regional governments may select a combination of the above methods as well.

3. Procedure for ratification of Amendments may only be changed by the lawmaking body of a region once every 60 days.

4. Regions may re-attempt or later rescind ratification of Amendments at their discretion, determined through the lawmaking body of the region, as there shall be no deadline or expiration of Constitutional Amendments passed by the Senate. Regions may not rescind ratification of Amendments that have come into full effect.

[Senator Napoleon]

Abstain

[Proud Lieberal from Northeast]

Nay

[President Marokai]

Aye.

[MOP]

Aye

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Aye

[There Are Some Remedies Worse Than The Disease]

Nay