Thou shalt not hate my robe
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StatesRights
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2004, 07:16:52 PM »

The fact remains are laws are based on religious morals. Would you want to live in a country with no moral code or decency?
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Lunar
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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2004, 08:04:52 PM »
« Edited: December 29, 2004, 08:32:07 PM by Lunar »

The fact remains are laws are based on religious morals. Would you want to live in a country with no moral code or decency?

So without religion we have no morals?  I'd like to think that certain concepts, such as murder being wrong, are intrinsic rather than supplied.

I have many friends who are athiests and they have just as much moral honor or whatever the hell you want to call it as my religious friends.

In addition, embracing one specific religion is bad for the courtroom.  The law must always be objective, and acts that are blatantly non-Christian (like someone breaking a churches windows) might be treated differently than the crime warrants, shrug. 
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StatesRights
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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2004, 08:20:46 PM »

People who damage churches should be treated differently from those who break the window in a car. All morals come from religion. If religion never existed I see no reason why murder, theft, etc. laws would ever have come into being.
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Alcon
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« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2004, 08:22:29 PM »

People who damage churches should be treated differently from those who break the window in a car. All morals come from religion. If religion never existed I see no reason why murder, theft, etc. laws would ever have come into being.

I'm not religious yet have morals. Why do you think this? I am pretty sure they were, by the way, in effect. Maybe I am wrong.
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Lunar
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« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2004, 08:36:38 PM »

People who damage churches should be treated differently from those who break the window in a car. All morals come from religion. If religion never existed I see no reason why murder, theft, etc. laws would ever have come into being.

I disagree completely, but here's a better example.  The defendent is accused of doing something like adultery in addition to the crime.  Reminding everyone in the court room that the defendent violated one of the ten commandments every second that the court is in session would likely encourage a religious jury to convict him.

Or even if it is revealed that the defendent is not a Christian (a witness gives it as an irrelevant fact or something), it could affect the court case to have the Ten up there like that. 

China is currently an athiest society, but murder is illegal over there for some reason.  But even if you're right, and murder would be legal if it weren't for religion, there's still no reason that the judge needs to wear the 10 Commandments on his robe, and there are many reasons to suggest it might affect the impartiality of the case.
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Gabu
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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2004, 09:45:34 PM »
« Edited: December 29, 2004, 09:51:49 PM by Senator-Elect Gabu »

First of all, the Sabbath is NOT Sunday.

What is it then?  A lot of business owners still work seven-day weeks, so whatever it is, they're not observing it.

Skip the first four, which have to do with God. The other six are the ones that apply to how we're supposed to treat each other, which is what government is for.

Skip the first four?  You can't ignore 40% of the Ten Commandments when proclaiming that the Ten Commandments in their entirety are one of the bases for American law.

Children have to obey their parents in every state.

Not really.  If a parent tells their teenaged son to take out the trash and he refuses, do they call 911 and have him arrested?  He hasn't committed any crime by disobeying his parents.

Murder is illegal in every state. Adultery is probably illegal in some states. Property is protected in every state. Lying under oath is illegal.

I'm not sure what your point is.  I never argued otherwise, besides adultery, and you're probably right that it is illegal somewhere.

Scheming to take property from your neighbor is also illegal.

That's not what "covet" means.  More on that below.

Your interpretation of the tenth amendment is particularly poor, IMO. It is one thing to think about how much you'd enjoy something, and another to think of how much you'd like to take something away from someone.

cov·et
v. cov·et·ed, cov·et·ing, cov·ets
v. tr.

   1. To feel blameworthy desire for (that which is another's). See Synonyms at envy.
   2. To wish for longingly. See Synonyms at desire.


"To covet" essentially means the same thing as "to envy" or "to desire".  That may mean that you want to steal your neighbor's TV.  Or it may mean that you want to go to Future Shop and buy a larger TV to show him up.  All it means is that you want what someone else has.  If coveting was the same thing as theft, we wouldn't need a whole new commandment for it.

So, what we've currently got from the Ten Commandments are "don't kill", "don't steal", "don't commit adultery" (probably somewhere), and "don't lie".

Are you trying to tell me we need an almighty God to tell us these things?

People who damage churches should be treated differently from those who break the window in a car. All morals come from religion. If religion never existed I see no reason why murder, theft, etc. laws would ever have come into being.

I've known unreligious people who are very moral and I've known very religious people who are very immoral.  Religion does not imply morality and the lack of religion does not imply a lack of morality.  Morals are simply common sense: people know that society would fall apart without them, so most people observe most of them for the common good.

Religion does, of course, teach morality, but it doesn't work for me to assert that religion is the root of morality.  That sounds to me more like taking a concept that already was there and claiming it as your own.  People had morals before Jesus was born.

At any rate, the point was that American laws are not based on the Ten Commandments.  I said nothing about religious morals in general.
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J-Mann
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2004, 11:13:38 PM »

I'm not religious yet have morals. Why do you think this?

Pffft, you're just an anomoly, like the odd grey hair on my head or a space-time distortion Tongue
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opebo
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« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2004, 07:24:25 AM »

People who damage churches should be treated differently from those who break the window in a car. All morals come from religion. If religion never existed I see no reason why murder, theft, etc. laws would ever have come into being.

Practical convenience.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2004, 08:33:23 AM »

Ok, I will accept your BELIEF that laws are not founded on any sense of religious morality at all. I will also accept that you are wholly ignorant of any facts and the reason why you believe the way you do is to disparge God and those that believe in him.
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opebo
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« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2004, 12:59:03 PM »

Ok, I will accept your BELIEF that laws are not founded on any sense of religious morality at all. I will also accept that you are wholly ignorant of any facts and the reason why you believe the way you do is to disparge God and those that believe in him.

I never said that laws were not founded on religious morality - obviously many are.  I was answering your hypothetical about how there could be laws absent religious belief.  One could get to the same place by a different route, as it were - practical convenience, exigency, a social contract.
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