Should German count as only one language?

[Gustaf]

Gus, while you're here I may as well turn the table on you. I've heard the argument that Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish should be classified as one Scandinavian language. Fair or no? And I don't buy the requisite literary precedent argument for the defintion of a language. Most languages in the world have little to no extant literature.

Well...it's more or less fair. Swedes, Danes and Norwegians can pretty much understand each other if they try.

I think the intrinsic differences are certainly a lot smaller than within German or Chinese, to give examples that have been discussed here.

Of course, since they have different countries they do have different written languages and so on.

[Sibboleth]

Aren't all dialects difficult to understand when you're not used to them?

By definition, yeah. Not always just the words either, although I suppose what makes German especially tricky in this regard is the fact that so many dialect words have survived. Mind you, see Alan Garner on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

[Snowguy716]

So let's compare different German dialects with concrete examples. I made up the following Standard High German sentence and would like to have it translated into different German varieties. Maybe some other German-speaking users will help me and write how the sentence sounds in their dialect. The sentence just serves the purpose of comparing some varieties - don't look too much at the content.

The English translation of the following sentence is something like "I'm staying at home today because I got sick yesterday."

Standard High German: Ich bleibe heute zu Hause, weil ich gestern krank wurde.
Swiss German: Ich blib hüt dihei, wil ich geschter chrank worde bi.

I don't know how to spell out the various Austrian dialects... but what I heard would sound like what I write below in this situation..

I bin heit dahoam g'blieben, weil i geschtern kroank g'worden bin. (I'm not 100% sure on the word "krank")

Another friend from Südtirol always said "wir haben das gemacht" as "mi' hoan desch g'mocht."

It's funny how the Austrian/Swiss dialects are closer to English with the zu Hause/daheim thing... an English speaker would never say "I am at the house"... always "I am at home"...

So when my friend would say "Ich gehe nach Hause".. it was "I geh hoam" (I go home).

[Boris]

Gus, while you're here I may as well turn the table on you. I've heard the argument that Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish should be classified as one Scandinavian language. Fair or no? And I don't buy the requisite literary precedent argument for the defintion of a language. Most languages in the world have little to no extant literature.

Well...it's more or less fair. Swedes, Danes and Norwegians can pretty much understand each other if they try.

I think the intrinsic differences are certainly a lot smaller than within German or Chinese, to give examples that have been discussed here.

Of course, since they have different countries they do have different written languages and so on.

Norwegian and Swedish have different spellings, but they're pretty close to one another. I'm sure verbally they sound basically the same. Danish is definitely different though. Would you speak Swedish if you visited another Nordic country or just English?

[Tender Branson]

Fellow German posters, try to translate these 2 dialect-sentences into Standard-German:

Vofeascht am Bachötog hobi ma - waö ma zoch woa - nochn zwogn mein Iaxnboscht huseg auf iappeda Seit grea gfarbb.

Amoi schau wia des bei de Weiwaleit ukimb !

I'll give you one tip:

Vofeascht am Bachötog hobi ma - waö ma zoch woa - nochn zwogn mein Iaxnboscht huseg auf iappeda Seit grea gfarbb.

Amoi schau wia des bei de Weiwaleit ukimb !

This is a brutal example of why our dialect could be its own language ...

[Sibboleth]

Norwegian and Swedish have different spellings, but they're pretty close to one another. I'm sure verbally they sound basically the same. Danish is definitely different though. Would you speak Swedish if you visited another Nordic country or just English?

Of course by mentioning 'Norwegian' in the context of a dialect thread... ah...

[Gustaf]

Gus, while you're here I may as well turn the table on you. I've heard the argument that Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish should be classified as one Scandinavian language. Fair or no? And I don't buy the requisite literary precedent argument for the defintion of a language. Most languages in the world have little to no extant literature.

Well...it's more or less fair. Swedes, Danes and Norwegians can pretty much understand each other if they try.

I think the intrinsic differences are certainly a lot smaller than within German or Chinese, to give examples that have been discussed here.

Of course, since they have different countries they do have different written languages and so on.

Norwegian and Swedish have different spellings, but they're pretty close to one another. I'm sure verbally they sound basically the same. Danish is definitely different though. Would you speak Swedish if you visited another Nordic country or just English?

Well, this is a complex question.

First of all, in written terms Danish and Norwegian are identical. I mean, seriously. What little difference there is can be ascribed to the Norwegians doing silly spelling reforms stuff when that sort of thing was really trendy a century ago and they gained their independence.

When it comes to the spoken language, Danish is a very, very muddled language. As in I believe (and obviously this is a convenient myth to be pushed here in Sweden, but I think it might actually be true) it takes longer for Danish kids to learn to speak because the language is so hard to listen to.

It's quite removed from the spelling with a lot of letters "swallowed down". As an effect, Danish is very easy to read for a Swede (as in I can pretty much read Danish without any trouble) but if it's spoken fast it's hard to keep up. I often have to ask a Dane to repeat things a bit slower.

With Norwegians it depends a lot more on the dialect. Standard Norwegian is not at all hard to follow for a Swede.

In terms of what language I use when going there, it varies a lot. I like to use Swedish since I think it's silly to use English with my Nordic brethren. On the other hand, sometimes it seems a bit arrogant, as if I was one of those continental European idiots who go abroad without knowing English and expect everyone to know French/Italian/Russian etc.

Especially with Danes it can seem hypocritical since I often can't understand them that easily. Then again, I often meet Danes/Norwegians in international contexts where everyone speaks English anyway, or the kind of people who have learnt to communicate with Swedes. I have a half-Swedish half-Danish friend, for example, and she speaks a Swedified version of Danish with me that I can understand very easily.

[Sibboleth]

On the other hand, sometimes it seems a bit arrogant, as if I was one of those continental European idiots who go abroad without knowing English and expect everyone to know French/Italian/Russian etc.

There's always the classic British idiot abroad method as well: SPEAK ENG-LISH LOUD-LY AND SLOW-LY.

[ZuWo]

Fellow German posters, try to translate these 2 dialect-sentences into Standard-German:

Vofeascht am Bachötog hobi ma - waö ma zoch woa - nochn zwogn mein Iaxnboscht huseg auf iappeda Seit grea gfarbb.

Amoi schau wia des bei de Weiwaleit ukimb !

I'll give you one tip:

Vofeascht am Bachötog hobi ma - waö ma zoch woa - nochn zwogn mein Iaxnboscht huseg auf iappeda Seit grea gfarbb.

Amoi schau wia des bei de Weiwaleit ukimb !

This is a brutal example of why our dialect could be its own language ...

... no chance. I only get "Vorgestern (?) am ... haben wir, weil wir ... waren, nach dem/den ... mein ... auf beiden (?) Seiten grün gefärbt (?)" - maybe.

[Tender Branson]

Fellow German posters, try to translate these 2 dialect-sentences into Standard-German:

Vofeascht am Bachötog hobi ma - waö ma zoch woa - nochn zwogn mein Iaxnboscht huseg auf iappeda Seit grea gfarbb.

Amoi schau wia des bei de Weiwaleit ukimb !

I'll give you one tip:

Vofeascht am Bachötog hobi ma - waö ma zoch woa - nochn zwogn mein Iaxnboscht huseg auf iappeda Seit grea gfarbb.

Amoi schau wia des bei de Weiwaleit ukimb !

This is a brutal example of why our dialect could be its own language ...

... no chance. I only get "Vorgestern (?) am ... haben wir, weil wir ... waren, nach dem/den ... mein ... auf beiden (?) Seiten grün gefärbt (?)" - maybe.

This is correct.

[Tender Branson]

I'll give you another tip:

"Vofeascht" means "2 years ago".

It comes from "feascht", which means "last year".

And "Vo-" in front of it means "before" last year.

I don't think there is a word for this in Standard-German, without using "Jahr". Maybe "Vorletztes Jahr" ?

The same with the word "znaxt", which means "a timespan of about 1-3 weeks ago". You can maybe translate it with the Standard-German "neulich" or "vor Kurzem" ...

[Tender Branson]

A few other good examples:

"driving backwards": aschleng foan (dialect), rückwärts fahren (standard-German)

"bridge railing": Bruggnglanna (dialect), Brückengeländer (standard-German)

"cranberry marmelade": Granggnmarmalad (dialect), Preiselbeermarmelade (standard-German)

"talk": Hoagascht (dialect), Unterhaltung/Gespräch (standard-German)

"pickaback": Bugglkrax (dialect), Huckepack (standard-German)

"native": doega (dialect), Einheimischer (standard-German)

"groundhog": Manggei (dialect) - Murmeltier (standard-German)

"pointless": lafeschdeg (dialect) - zwecklos/sinnlos (standard-German)

"poor guy": heita-mandl (dialect) - armer Mann (standard-German)

"sand avalanche/mudflow": bloak (dialect) - Mure (standard-German)

and a ton of other words that have nothing to do with standard-German ...

[Tender Branson]

Another great word is "babysitting".

Almost everyone in Germany has already taken over this English word into the German mainstream. I cannot think of another word than "Kinder betreuen" for it.

Here in dialect we just say "kinzn" for babysitting. So, while the rest of the German-speaking areas have introduced this English word, in dialect it is not used. Only if you write it lets say in the newspaper: Babysitter wanted. Because there is no noun for it.

[Gustaf]

On the other hand, sometimes it seems a bit arrogant, as if I was one of those continental European idiots who go abroad without knowing English and expect everyone to know French/Italian/Russian etc.

There's always the classic British idiot abroad method as well: SPEAK ENG-LISH LOUD-LY AND SLOW-LY.

Ha, yes. I'd say though that one can often expect people to know English. I got pissed at the airport security in Brussels when they didn't (I know enough French to get by anyway but I found it unprofessional).

But if you're like, Italian, what do you expect?

[Jack Vance RIP]

On the other hand, sometimes it seems a bit arrogant, as if I was one of those continental European idiots who go abroad without knowing English and expect everyone to know French/Italian/Russian etc.

There's always the classic British idiot abroad method as well: SPEAK ENG-LISH LOUD-LY AND SLOW-LY.

Ha, yes. I'd say though that one can often expect people to know English. I got pissed at the airport security in Brussels when they didn't (I know enough French to get by anyway but I found it unprofessional).

But if you're like, Italian, what do you expect?

Don't go to Spain then.

[Vasall des Midas]

Fellow German posters, try to translate these 2 dialect-sentences into Standard-German:

Vofeascht am Bachötog hobi ma - waö ma zoch woa - nochn zwogn mein Iaxnboscht huseg auf iappeda Seit grea gfarbb.

Amoi schau wia des bei de Weiwaleit ukimb !

I'll give you one tip:

Vofeascht am Bachötog hobi ma - waö ma zoch woa - nochn zwogn mein Iaxnboscht huseg auf iappeda Seit grea gfarbb.

Amoi schau wia des bei de Weiwaleit ukimb !

This is a brutal example of why our dialect could be its own language ...

Well, the second sentence is easy. Schau dir an, wie das bei den Weibern ankommt.

The first though.... uh. What?

[Tender Branson]

Fellow German posters, try to translate these 2 dialect-sentences into Standard-German:

Vofeascht am Bachötog hobi ma - waö ma zoch woa - nochn zwogn mein Iaxnboscht huseg auf iappeda Seit grea gfarbb.

Amoi schau wia des bei de Weiwaleit ukimb !

I'll give you one tip:

Vofeascht am Bachötog hobi ma - waö ma zoch woa - nochn zwogn mein Iaxnboscht huseg auf iappeda Seit grea gfarbb.

Amoi schau wia des bei de Weiwaleit ukimb !

This is a brutal example of why our dialect could be its own language ...

Well, the second sentence is easy. Schau dir an, wie das bei den Weibern ankommt.

The first though.... uh. What?

You got the 2nd sentence right.

OK, here's the translation:

Vofeascht = vor 2 Jahren

am Bachötog = am Weihnachtstag/24.12.

hobi ma = hab ich mir

waö ma zoch woa = weil mir langweilig war

nochn zwogn = nach dem Duschen/Baden

mein Iaxnboscht = meine Achselbehaarung/meinen Achselbart (lol)

huseg = schnell

auf iappeda Seit = auf beiden Seiten

grea gfarbb = grün gefärbt

...

And now in English:

"Two years ago on Christmas Day, out of boredom, after taking a shower I quickly colored my armpit hair on both sides green. Let's see how this works out with the ladies."

[Gustaf]

On the other hand, sometimes it seems a bit arrogant, as if I was one of those continental European idiots who go abroad without knowing English and expect everyone to know French/Italian/Russian etc.

There's always the classic British idiot abroad method as well: SPEAK ENG-LISH LOUD-LY AND SLOW-LY.

Ha, yes. I'd say though that one can often expect people to know English. I got pissed at the airport security in Brussels when they didn't (I know enough French to get by anyway but I found it unprofessional).

But if you're like, Italian, what do you expect?

Don't go to Spain then.

I've been to Barcelona. Loved the Gaudi architecture. It fits my bourgeois taste.

[ZuWo]

And now in English:

"Two years ago on Christmas Day, out of boredom, after taking a shower I quickly colored my armpit hair on both sides green. Let's see how this works out with the ladies."

Häsch das würkli gmacht?

(Have you really done that?)

[Jack Vance RIP]

On the other hand, sometimes it seems a bit arrogant, as if I was one of those continental European idiots who go abroad without knowing English and expect everyone to know French/Italian/Russian etc.

There's always the classic British idiot abroad method as well: SPEAK ENG-LISH LOUD-LY AND SLOW-LY.

Ha, yes. I'd say though that one can often expect people to know English. I got pissed at the airport security in Brussels when they didn't (I know enough French to get by anyway but I found it unprofessional).

But if you're like, Italian, what do you expect?

Don't go to Spain then.

I've been to Barcelona. Loved the Gaudi architecture. It fits my bourgeois taste.

lulz. My point is, don't expect English when travelling through airport security in Spain. I was lucky in that most of my "incidents" involving security took place after spending a year there.. but not all. Fun times.

[Insula Dei]

On the other hand, sometimes it seems a bit arrogant, as if I was one of those continental European idiots who go abroad without knowing English and expect everyone to know French/Italian/Russian etc.

There's always the classic British idiot abroad method as well: SPEAK ENG-LISH LOUD-LY AND SLOW-LY.

Ha, yes. I'd say though that one can often expect people to know English. I got pissed at the airport security in Brussels when they didn't (I know enough French to get by anyway but I found it unprofessional).

But if you're like, Italian, what do you expect?

When you say 'Brussels' do you mean Charleroi (what those Ryanair charlatans call 'Brussels-South) or Zaventem?  I just can't imagine Zaventem staff not knowing enough English to help you, even Charleroi staff is hard to conceive as not speaking English (,though I can vouch one shouldn't count on them knowing Dutch).

[Sibboleth]

'Brussels - Charleroi' is great. Like having... oh... how about 'Cardiff - Rhondda', except that you could never build an airport up there. 'Leeds - Barnsley', perhaps?

[Kuu ülevaade olulisematest]

Is Charleroi really that far from Brussels? It's the same distance as Baltimore Airport is from Washington.

[Sibboleth]

Is Charleroi really that far from Brussels? It's the same distance as Baltimore Airport is from Washington.

It's the culture shock that's funnier than the distance.

[Vasall des Midas]

'Brussels - Charleroi' is great. Like having... oh... how about 'Cardiff - Rhondda', except that you could never build an airport up there. 'Leeds - Barnsley', perhaps?

Nothing will ever beat "Frankfurt-Hahn". It's actually closer to Luxembourg.