Greece 2012
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Author Topic: Greece 2012  (Read 221720 times)
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
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« Reply #725 on: May 18, 2012, 02:56:46 PM »

OK, I won't respond to any more post which contain "why should we pay". Now I'm sick of this mind-numbed rhetoric.

It's not rhetoric: it's the essence of things. And you'd better understand that.

Roll Eyes
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ag
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« Reply #726 on: May 18, 2012, 02:58:10 PM »

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common european currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a european government responsible to a european parliament that has direct taxation authority over the european population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #727 on: May 18, 2012, 03:01:32 PM »

Even if we suppose that Greece deserves all the punishment it gets, why are the Germans imposing the same punishment on countries like Ireland and Spain which were examples of fiscal prudence until 2008?

Germany is not imposing a punishment on anyone - not even on Greece.

Yes she does. Merkel said as much to Papandreou when he asked for a more lenient program back in 2010. Go read the WSJ article from a couple of days ago.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
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« Reply #728 on: May 18, 2012, 03:15:20 PM »

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common european currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a european government responsible to a european parliament that has direct taxation authority over the european population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.
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politicus
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« Reply #729 on: May 18, 2012, 03:24:26 PM »

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common European currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a European government responsible to a European parliament that has direct taxation authority over the European population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.
But a large number of European states, especially in the east and north, doesn't want that, so you would need to split the present EU before you could get that far, which is a cumbersome process. Furthermore you would have to create a new structure for cooperation between the European Federation and the rest of the old EU (including several states from the Euro zone). I just cant see how this can be accomplished. Especially in the middle of an economic crisis.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
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« Reply #730 on: May 18, 2012, 03:34:40 PM »

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common European currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a European government responsible to a European parliament that has direct taxation authority over the European population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.
But a large number of European states, especially in the east and north, doesn't want that, so you would need to split the present EU before you could get that far, which is a cumbersome process. Furthermore you would have to create a new structure for cooperation between the European Federation and the rest of the old EU (including several states from the Euro zone). I just cant see how this can be accomplished. Especially in the middle of an economic crisis.

It will take time. Maybe an entire century... But I want to believe this is what we are heading to, because all the other outcomes I can think of are despairingly bleak.
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Nhoj
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« Reply #731 on: May 18, 2012, 04:42:33 PM »

Isn't one of the rules for this board, not having these kind of discussions here?
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Zuza
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« Reply #732 on: May 18, 2012, 05:28:46 PM »

For the first time since 6 May elections, one poll (Marc/Alpha) indicate ND lead with 23.1 % (SYRIZA 21 %). ND and PASOK combined would get 164 seats. Can they form coalition in case of such election result?
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You kip if you want to...
change08
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« Reply #733 on: May 18, 2012, 05:51:27 PM »

For the first time since 6 May elections, one poll (Marc/Alpha) indicate ND lead with 23.1 % (SYRIZA 21 %). ND and PASOK combined would get 164 seats. Can they form coalition in case of such election result?

Yeah, 151 seats gets them a majority of 1.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #734 on: May 18, 2012, 06:32:52 PM »

Isn't one of the rules for this board, not having these kind of discussions here?

It's not exactly banned, but is certainly heavily discouraged. Hard to really stop it in a thread about Greece, though.
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ag
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« Reply #735 on: May 18, 2012, 07:06:51 PM »


You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.

Fine - if you can persuade the other Europeans Smiley But the common currency will naturally come after you have all that - not before. That's the problem: they put the cart ahead of the horse, so the whole things is imploding.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #736 on: May 19, 2012, 04:18:35 AM »

Political union of that kind is dead. It's been killed, partially on purpose, over the past decade.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
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« Reply #737 on: May 19, 2012, 05:08:50 AM »
« Edited: May 19, 2012, 05:11:56 AM by Au revoir Nicolas ! »

Political union of that kind is dead. It's been killed, partially on purpose, over the past decade.

It has been extremely weakened, but I don't think it's dead. I can't believe the only idea that can avoid the inexorable decline of Europe is dead. If I believed that, I'd give up on politics outright.
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Iannis
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« Reply #738 on: May 19, 2012, 05:32:53 AM »

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common european currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a european government responsible to a european parliament that has direct taxation authority over the european population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.

No no, it must be done in the SAME moment, or better, first a unique fiscal authorithy with a control on any expense of any state in cluding Greece, and THEN the eurobond as a consequence. This implies that laws about greek pensions, for instance, are not anymore possible, not with money of fiscal disciplined peopleo of Germany, Austria, Finland, Netherlands, Northern Italy.
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SPQR
italian-boy
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« Reply #739 on: May 19, 2012, 06:27:55 AM »

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common european currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a european government responsible to a european parliament that has direct taxation authority over the european population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.

No no, it must be done in the SAME moment, or better, first a unique fiscal authorithy with a control on any expense of any state in cluding Greece, and THEN the eurobond as a consequence. This implies that laws about greek pensions, for instance, are not anymore possible, not with money of fiscal disciplined peopleo of Germany, Austria, Finland, Netherlands, Northern Italy.
Ahah yeah sure,the same "fiscal disciplined people of Northern Italy" who have ridicolous tax evasion rates.
Please...
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Iannis
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« Reply #740 on: May 19, 2012, 07:19:41 AM »

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common european currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a european government responsible to a european parliament that has direct taxation authority over the european population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.

No no, it must be done in the SAME moment, or better, first a unique fiscal authorithy with a control on any expense of any state in cluding Greece, and THEN the eurobond as a consequence. This implies that laws about greek pensions, for instance, are not anymore possible, not with money of fiscal disciplined peopleo of Germany, Austria, Finland, Netherlands, Northern Italy.
Ahah yeah sure,the same "fiscal disciplined people of Northern Italy" who have ridicolous tax evasion rates.
Please...

It's one of the lowest rate in europe, the same of Germany or Finland, as hugely demonstrated many and many times
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tpfkaw
wormyguy
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« Reply #741 on: May 19, 2012, 09:02:30 AM »

If a "fiscal union" is created for the purpose not of clamping down on profligacy but using German/Germanic credit quality to increase it, then 3-7 years later we'd be talking about the entire-EU debt crisis.  While such an event would undoubtedly be hilarious in several ways, it would probably provoke a worldwide depression.
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SPQR
italian-boy
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« Reply #742 on: May 19, 2012, 10:00:48 AM »

This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common european currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a european government responsible to a european parliament that has direct taxation authority over the european population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.

No no, it must be done in the SAME moment, or better, first a unique fiscal authorithy with a control on any expense of any state in cluding Greece, and THEN the eurobond as a consequence. This implies that laws about greek pensions, for instance, are not anymore possible, not with money of fiscal disciplined peopleo of Germany, Austria, Finland, Netherlands, Northern Italy.
Ahah yeah sure,the same "fiscal disciplined people of Northern Italy" who have ridicolous tax evasion rates.
Please...

It's one of the lowest rate in europe, the same of Germany or Finland, as hugely demonstrated many and many times
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #743 on: May 19, 2012, 10:05:42 AM »

That image does show Northern Italy as a low evasion zone.

Of course, whoever counted? Whoever defined evasion? Heck, whoever claimed Germany was a low tax evasion country? Huh
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SPQR
italian-boy
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« Reply #744 on: May 19, 2012, 10:07:55 AM »

That image does show Northern Italy as a low evasion zone.

Of course, whoever counted? Whoever defined evasion? Heck, whoever claimed Germany was a low tax evasion country? Huh
If you look at the bottom,it shows how the amount of money evaded in the North is larger than that of the rest of Italy combined...
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Franzl
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« Reply #745 on: May 19, 2012, 10:20:40 AM »

That image does show Northern Italy as a low evasion zone.

Of course, whoever counted? Whoever defined evasion? Heck, whoever claimed Germany was a low tax evasion country? Huh
If you look at the bottom,it shows how the amount of money evaded in the North is larger than that of the rest of Italy combined...

That's a rather dishonest way of comparing, you know.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #746 on: May 19, 2012, 10:29:26 AM »

That image does show Northern Italy as a low evasion zone.

Of course, whoever counted? Whoever defined evasion? Heck, whoever claimed Germany was a low tax evasion country? Huh
If you look at the bottom,it shows how the amount of money evaded in the North is larger than that of the rest of Italy combined...
The text at the bottom seems to claim something completely different than the map does. Huh
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MaxQue
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« Reply #747 on: May 19, 2012, 10:34:24 AM »

Well, the south evades more, but the South is way poorer than the North.
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SPQR
italian-boy
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« Reply #748 on: May 19, 2012, 10:34:42 AM »

That image does show Northern Italy as a low evasion zone.

Of course, whoever counted? Whoever defined evasion? Heck, whoever claimed Germany was a low tax evasion country? Huh
If you look at the bottom,it shows how the amount of money evaded in the North is larger than that of the rest of Italy combined...

That's a rather dishonest way of comparing, you know.
It would be if I were trying to prove that the evasion in the South is lower.

All I am trying to say is that the North is no paradise.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #749 on: May 19, 2012, 06:55:25 PM »

The South is persecuted once again.
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