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Author Topic: Greece 2012  (Read 64888 times)
Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #650 on: May 15, 2012, 04:48:49 pm »
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I hope SYRIZA wins and withdraws from the Eurozone. I'd rather watch the whole world burn than see fellow citizens in the European periphery be subjected to the rape of their economy without their sovereign will being truly exercised. I'd rather the failures of the austeritymongers and the potential crisis they helped to create during the heady boom days be exposed now than see their manufactured problems slowly come to light over the next few years as the neo-liberal vampires suck the lifeblood out of Spain then Portugal then Italy then France. I'm sick of so-called serious people lecturing whole entire nations of people about their profligacy and lazy behavior when the crisis had everything to do with the EU being a flawed project. I'm sick of people treating economics as a morality play to the point where I'd like to see an economic crisis blow up in the face of the Merkels of the world just to see them suffer politically and to see the "center consensus" destroyed permanently.

That's my poorly constructed rant of the day that exposes my sentiments more than my actual policy positions. I've given up on the idea of the European Union actually exercising itself as a legitimate governing body and to me, default is the logical next step. Design a godawful system, get a bad result.

Poorly constructed rant or no, I feel like stating that you're not alone in feeling exactly like this.
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« Reply #651 on: May 15, 2012, 05:04:50 pm »
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After thinking about it a lot... I now believe that Greece will have a better (not so bad) future if they stay in the Euro. I've read a lot about it in right, centre and left newspapers, I've read px and other posters opinions, I've watched some programmes about it on TV... And my conclusion is that Greece will have an even harder problem to fix if they go back to the drachma. The European Union is a good idea, it was good for the growth of Greece and Spain, and for the entire union. The problem is that it's been taken over by Merkel and her ultraliberal friends (bye, bye, Sarko!!).

The only solution is to beat Merkel next year. That's the only real solution. But Greece (and Spain) can't wait until 2013 =S

And if I were a Greek... after "having voted" DIMAR last month (SRYZA being my 2nd option) I'd probably come back home and vote Venizelos. I used to dislike him because he seems to be as conservative as Bono in Spain and even more opportunistic, I'm beginning to believe he really cares about Greece. So, it'd be DIMAR or PASOK, that for sure.

What about the rest of you? What party would you vote?
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« Reply #652 on: May 15, 2012, 06:06:36 pm »
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And if I were a Greek... after "having voted" DIMAR last month (SRYZA being my 2nd option) I'd probably come back home and vote Venizelos. I used to dislike him because he seems to be as conservative as Bono in Spain and even more opportunistic, I'm beginning to believe he really cares about Greece. So, it'd be DIMAR or PASOK, that for sure.

What about the rest of you? What party would you vote?

I would vote DIMAR and hope that SYRIZA would be the biggest party and could form a coalition with PASOK and DIMAR and stay in euro.

SYRIZA would be 2nd option for me too.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 06:14:35 pm by Lasitten »Logged

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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #653 on: May 15, 2012, 06:09:23 pm »
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And if I were a Greek... after "having voted" DIMAR last month (SRYZA being my 2nd option) I'd probably come back home and vote Venizelos. I used to dislike him because he seems to be as conservative as Bono in Spain and even more opportunistic, I'm beginning to believe he really cares about Greece. So, it'd be DIMAR or PASOK, that for sure.


Venizelos is a corrupt, narcissistic jerk, too enamored with the sound of his voice. He is the poster boy of our bloated client state and along with his lieutenants did everything he could to undermine Papandreou and the other reform-minded ministers.

I will vote ND before I even consider to do so for PASOK as long as this demagogue is their leader.
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« Reply #654 on: May 15, 2012, 06:13:52 pm »
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Venizelos is a corrupt, narcissistic jerk, too enamored with the sound of his voice. He is the poster boy of our bloated client state and along with his lieutenants did everything he could to undermine Papandreou and the other reform-minded ministers.

I will vote ND before I even consider to do so for PASOK as long as this demagogue is their leader.

Isn't corruption a problem with ND too?
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« Reply #655 on: May 15, 2012, 06:32:36 pm »
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This nonsense can of course be stopped in ten minutes if the EU:
1) announces that it will equip itself with a real central bank (a lender of last resort) that takes all risk of sovereign default off the table — with conviction and overwhelming force, with no ifs and buts, and no ambushes from the Bundesbank.
2) announces EMU debt-pooling, fiscal union, a joint EMU budget and tax system, and an EMU government as a counterpart for the enhanced the ECB.
Funny, how they put it. I guess, what they mean by 10 minutes is several years for negotiating a new European treaty and then ratifying it by every single of the 27 or 28 states that form EU. Achieving, in the process, a radical leap towards full integration: so radical, in fact, that it is comparable to all that has been done over decades during the entire process of European integration.

Quite 10minutes Smiley)
 
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« Reply #656 on: May 15, 2012, 06:59:41 pm »
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The way things are looking for Greece it's better to exit if they don't want to deal with 10 more years of austerity, one swift default and a few months of unrest and they can go back to being a functioning tourist trap.
@ Leftbehind, much simpler solution would be equalization payments, where Germany pays a few billion to Greece each year.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 07:02:19 pm by Senator Seatown »Logged
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« Reply #657 on: May 15, 2012, 08:33:59 pm »
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The only solution is to beat Merkel next year. That's the only real solution. But Greece (and Spain) can't wait until 2013 =S

One of the major reasons Merkel's governemt is unpopular is because German tax-payers are tired of having to bail-out Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal and all other Euro-countries that can't pay their own debts. So thinking the SDP will sweep her out of power just to start handing out bail-outs for free without any demands for a tougher Greek budget is just silly. 

German politicians will serve German intrests. Just like Greek politicians will serve Greek intrests. (In their own strange ways) The leader on top really does a lot less difference than some people seem to realise.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 08:37:16 pm by Swedish Cheese »Logged

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« Reply #658 on: May 15, 2012, 09:16:16 pm »
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The main problem isn't Greek budget, it's the fiscal policies of EU decided by Germany which are destroying the manifactural economy of Southern EU.
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« Reply #659 on: May 15, 2012, 09:58:48 pm »
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The way things are looking for Greece it's better to exit if they don't want to deal with 10 more years of austerity, one swift default and a few months of unrest and they can go back to being a functioning tourist trap.

One leap off this cliff and it's all over...

Funny, how they put it. I guess, what they mean by 10 minutes is several years for negotiating a new European treaty and then ratifying it by every single of the 27 or 28 states that form EU. Achieving, in the process, a radical leap towards full integration: so radical, in fact, that it is comparable to all that has been done over decades during the entire process of European integration.

The central bank part can be done in 10 minutes.
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Swedish Cheese
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« Reply #660 on: May 16, 2012, 04:16:27 am »
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Funny, how they put it. I guess, what they mean by 10 minutes is several years for negotiating a new European treaty and then ratifying it by every single of the 27 or 28 states that form EU. Achieving, in the process, a radical leap towards full integration: so radical, in fact, that it is comparable to all that has been done over decades during the entire process of European integration.

The central bank part can be done in 10 minutes.

You fail to understand European Law 101. The EU is not the US federal government, and does not have surpreme legislative power over its member states. According to Article 5 of the Treaty on the European Union it can only create legislation within areas where it has been granted power by the national governments in a treaty. That's for example why the Union can't raise its own taxes. 


So no it couldn't be done in 10 minutes, because the current EU treaty does not allow the Union the power to create a central bank. You would need  to pass a  new treaty for it to be possible. And as pointed out by ag, it takes a few years at best, a decade if it's such controversial ideas as a European central bank.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 04:19:18 am by Swedish Cheese »Logged

Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #661 on: May 16, 2012, 04:59:25 am »
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The ECB can very well print money and act as lender of last resort, there is no need for a law to do that. The only obstacle is Germany's psychotic fear of inflation.
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« Reply #662 on: May 16, 2012, 10:49:40 am »
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The ECB can very well print money and act as lender of last resort, there is no need for a law to do that. The only obstacle is Germany's psychotic fear of inflation.

If the ECB starts doing this at a scale that's going to make a difference for Greece, within a few years euro will be a currency of Greece and Greece alone Smiley)
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« Reply #663 on: May 16, 2012, 12:10:35 pm »
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The relevant poll is on BBC. Over Monday and Tuesday Greek banks had 1.2 bln euro withdrawn (0.75% of deposits). There may well be a bank run within days (actually, this IS an early stage of the bank run, the question is if it is contained). If that happens, the political situaion is going to be changed fairly radically: god knows how, though.
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« Reply #664 on: May 16, 2012, 12:46:44 pm »
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The relevant poll is on BBC. Over Monday and Tuesday Greek banks had 1.2 bln euro withdrawn (0.75% of deposits). There may well be a bank run within days (actually, this IS an early stage of the bank run, the question is if it is contained). If that happens, the political situaion is going to be changed fairly radically: god knows how, though.
So Greeks are voting for SYRIZA before voting for SYRIZA?
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #665 on: May 16, 2012, 12:55:26 pm »
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I've already started withdrawing my money and sending them to Cyprus.
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« Reply #666 on: May 16, 2012, 01:14:25 pm »
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The ECB can very well print money and act as lender of last resort, there is no need for a law to do that. The only obstacle is Germany's psychotic fear of inflation.
Indeed it can, and even is doing a tiny little bit in that direction - more than many of its own employees are comfortable with (huge numbers of Germans there, it's here in Frankfurt after all) or that its treaty "mandate" arguably covers. It's a sizable part of the reason why only Greece has gone totally down the drain, and not Spain, Portugal, Ireland, possibly Italy as well.

Another (esp. regarding Ireland) is obviously private lender irrationality. They speak English in Ireland, you can trust them. Wink

But seriously, the ECB is not your main enemy in all this. That's the big private investment banks. Followed by the Merkozy governments.
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« Reply #667 on: May 16, 2012, 03:08:52 pm »
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Funny, how they put it. I guess, what they mean by 10 minutes is several years for negotiating a new European treaty and then ratifying it by every single of the 27 or 28 states that form EU. Achieving, in the process, a radical leap towards full integration: so radical, in fact, that it is comparable to all that has been done over decades during the entire process of European integration.

The central bank part can be done in 10 minutes.

You fail to understand European Law 101. The EU is not the US federal government, and does not have surpreme legislative power over its member states. According to Article 5 of the Treaty on the European Union it can only create legislation within areas where it has been granted power by the national governments in a treaty. That's for example why the Union can't raise its own taxes. 


So no it couldn't be done in 10 minutes, because the current EU treaty does not allow the Union the power to create a central bank. You would need  to pass a  new treaty for it to be possible. And as pointed out by ag, it takes a few years at best, a decade if it's such controversial ideas as a European central bank.

Who said anything about creating a central bank? I'm talking about the ECB, which was already created. You would not need a treaty. In fact, the ability to supercede treaties and politicians within the institutional structure is the prime reason why ECB action is the only feasible solution to this.

We are not asking the ECB do anything qualitatively different than what it has already done, only quantitatively.

Third, you cannot have a currency union without a common central bank and a common monetary policy. These things ought to have been implied within the meaning of joining into a single currency.
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« Reply #668 on: May 16, 2012, 03:53:29 pm »

Why isn't TheNationalist/TheNazi banned yet?
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« Reply #669 on: May 16, 2012, 03:56:45 pm »
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Why isn't TheNationalist/TheNazi banned yet?

Looks like mods are slow on IP checking...
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« Reply #670 on: May 16, 2012, 04:04:55 pm »
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Why isn't TheNationalist/TheNazi banned yet?
Because Greece is a democracy?
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« Reply #671 on: May 16, 2012, 05:02:25 pm »
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Why isn't TheNationalist/TheNazi banned yet?
Because Greece is a democracy?

We are talking of Atlas poster, on the forum.
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« Reply #672 on: May 16, 2012, 06:54:48 pm »
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I've already started withdrawing my money and sending them to Cyprus.

Better send it to UK.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #673 on: May 16, 2012, 06:57:05 pm »
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I've already started withdrawing my money and sending them to Cyprus.

Better send it to UK.

Difficult. I must go in person there and open an account, and probably give proof that I have a residence there too.
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« Reply #674 on: May 16, 2012, 07:09:48 pm »
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Residence? For the moment you are still in EU, aren't you? So, even if they ask for it, establishing residence shouldn't be hard.

Anyway, I still have some cash in a Spanish account - I should use it to buy stuff ASAP.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 07:23:27 pm by ag »Logged
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