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Author Topic: Greece 2012  (Read 81104 times)
Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #650 on: May 15, 2012, 06:09:23 pm »
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And if I were a Greek... after "having voted" DIMAR last month (SRYZA being my 2nd option) I'd probably come back home and vote Venizelos. I used to dislike him because he seems to be as conservative as Bono in Spain and even more opportunistic, I'm beginning to believe he really cares about Greece. So, it'd be DIMAR or PASOK, that for sure.


Venizelos is a corrupt, narcissistic jerk, too enamored with the sound of his voice. He is the poster boy of our bloated client state and along with his lieutenants did everything he could to undermine Papandreou and the other reform-minded ministers.

I will vote ND before I even consider to do so for PASOK as long as this demagogue is their leader.
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« Reply #651 on: May 15, 2012, 06:13:52 pm »
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Venizelos is a corrupt, narcissistic jerk, too enamored with the sound of his voice. He is the poster boy of our bloated client state and along with his lieutenants did everything he could to undermine Papandreou and the other reform-minded ministers.

I will vote ND before I even consider to do so for PASOK as long as this demagogue is their leader.

Isn't corruption a problem with ND too?
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« Reply #652 on: May 15, 2012, 06:32:36 pm »
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This nonsense can of course be stopped in ten minutes if the EU:
1) announces that it will equip itself with a real central bank (a lender of last resort) that takes all risk of sovereign default off the table — with conviction and overwhelming force, with no ifs and buts, and no ambushes from the Bundesbank.
2) announces EMU debt-pooling, fiscal union, a joint EMU budget and tax system, and an EMU government as a counterpart for the enhanced the ECB.
Funny, how they put it. I guess, what they mean by 10 minutes is several years for negotiating a new European treaty and then ratifying it by every single of the 27 or 28 states that form EU. Achieving, in the process, a radical leap towards full integration: so radical, in fact, that it is comparable to all that has been done over decades during the entire process of European integration.

Quite 10minutes Smiley)
 
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« Reply #653 on: May 15, 2012, 06:59:41 pm »
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The way things are looking for Greece it's better to exit if they don't want to deal with 10 more years of austerity, one swift default and a few months of unrest and they can go back to being a functioning tourist trap.
@ Leftbehind, much simpler solution would be equalization payments, where Germany pays a few billion to Greece each year.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 07:02:19 pm by Senator Seatown »Logged
Swedish Cheese
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« Reply #654 on: May 15, 2012, 08:33:59 pm »
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The only solution is to beat Merkel next year. That's the only real solution. But Greece (and Spain) can't wait until 2013 =S

One of the major reasons Merkel's governemt is unpopular is because German tax-payers are tired of having to bail-out Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal and all other Euro-countries that can't pay their own debts. So thinking the SDP will sweep her out of power just to start handing out bail-outs for free without any demands for a tougher Greek budget is just silly. 

German politicians will serve German intrests. Just like Greek politicians will serve Greek intrests. (In their own strange ways) The leader on top really does a lot less difference than some people seem to realise.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 08:37:16 pm by Swedish Cheese »Logged

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« Reply #655 on: May 15, 2012, 09:16:16 pm »
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The main problem isn't Greek budget, it's the fiscal policies of EU decided by Germany which are destroying the manifactural economy of Southern EU.
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« Reply #656 on: May 15, 2012, 09:58:48 pm »
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The way things are looking for Greece it's better to exit if they don't want to deal with 10 more years of austerity, one swift default and a few months of unrest and they can go back to being a functioning tourist trap.

One leap off this cliff and it's all over...

Funny, how they put it. I guess, what they mean by 10 minutes is several years for negotiating a new European treaty and then ratifying it by every single of the 27 or 28 states that form EU. Achieving, in the process, a radical leap towards full integration: so radical, in fact, that it is comparable to all that has been done over decades during the entire process of European integration.

The central bank part can be done in 10 minutes.
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« Reply #657 on: May 16, 2012, 04:16:27 am »
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Funny, how they put it. I guess, what they mean by 10 minutes is several years for negotiating a new European treaty and then ratifying it by every single of the 27 or 28 states that form EU. Achieving, in the process, a radical leap towards full integration: so radical, in fact, that it is comparable to all that has been done over decades during the entire process of European integration.

The central bank part can be done in 10 minutes.

You fail to understand European Law 101. The EU is not the US federal government, and does not have surpreme legislative power over its member states. According to Article 5 of the Treaty on the European Union it can only create legislation within areas where it has been granted power by the national governments in a treaty. That's for example why the Union can't raise its own taxes. 


So no it couldn't be done in 10 minutes, because the current EU treaty does not allow the Union the power to create a central bank. You would need  to pass a  new treaty for it to be possible. And as pointed out by ag, it takes a few years at best, a decade if it's such controversial ideas as a European central bank.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 04:19:18 am by Swedish Cheese »Logged

Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #658 on: May 16, 2012, 04:59:25 am »
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The ECB can very well print money and act as lender of last resort, there is no need for a law to do that. The only obstacle is Germany's psychotic fear of inflation.
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« Reply #659 on: May 16, 2012, 10:49:40 am »
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The ECB can very well print money and act as lender of last resort, there is no need for a law to do that. The only obstacle is Germany's psychotic fear of inflation.

If the ECB starts doing this at a scale that's going to make a difference for Greece, within a few years euro will be a currency of Greece and Greece alone Smiley)
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« Reply #660 on: May 16, 2012, 12:10:35 pm »
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The relevant poll is on BBC. Over Monday and Tuesday Greek banks had 1.2 bln euro withdrawn (0.75% of deposits). There may well be a bank run within days (actually, this IS an early stage of the bank run, the question is if it is contained). If that happens, the political situaion is going to be changed fairly radically: god knows how, though.
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« Reply #661 on: May 16, 2012, 12:46:44 pm »
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The relevant poll is on BBC. Over Monday and Tuesday Greek banks had 1.2 bln euro withdrawn (0.75% of deposits). There may well be a bank run within days (actually, this IS an early stage of the bank run, the question is if it is contained). If that happens, the political situaion is going to be changed fairly radically: god knows how, though.
So Greeks are voting for SYRIZA before voting for SYRIZA?
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #662 on: May 16, 2012, 12:55:26 pm »
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I've already started withdrawing my money and sending them to Cyprus.
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« Reply #663 on: May 16, 2012, 01:14:25 pm »
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The ECB can very well print money and act as lender of last resort, there is no need for a law to do that. The only obstacle is Germany's psychotic fear of inflation.
Indeed it can, and even is doing a tiny little bit in that direction - more than many of its own employees are comfortable with (huge numbers of Germans there, it's here in Frankfurt after all) or that its treaty "mandate" arguably covers. It's a sizable part of the reason why only Greece has gone totally down the drain, and not Spain, Portugal, Ireland, possibly Italy as well.

Another (esp. regarding Ireland) is obviously private lender irrationality. They speak English in Ireland, you can trust them. Wink

But seriously, the ECB is not your main enemy in all this. That's the big private investment banks. Followed by the Merkozy governments.
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« Reply #664 on: May 16, 2012, 03:08:52 pm »
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Funny, how they put it. I guess, what they mean by 10 minutes is several years for negotiating a new European treaty and then ratifying it by every single of the 27 or 28 states that form EU. Achieving, in the process, a radical leap towards full integration: so radical, in fact, that it is comparable to all that has been done over decades during the entire process of European integration.

The central bank part can be done in 10 minutes.

You fail to understand European Law 101. The EU is not the US federal government, and does not have surpreme legislative power over its member states. According to Article 5 of the Treaty on the European Union it can only create legislation within areas where it has been granted power by the national governments in a treaty. That's for example why the Union can't raise its own taxes. 


So no it couldn't be done in 10 minutes, because the current EU treaty does not allow the Union the power to create a central bank. You would need  to pass a  new treaty for it to be possible. And as pointed out by ag, it takes a few years at best, a decade if it's such controversial ideas as a European central bank.

Who said anything about creating a central bank? I'm talking about the ECB, which was already created. You would not need a treaty. In fact, the ability to supercede treaties and politicians within the institutional structure is the prime reason why ECB action is the only feasible solution to this.

We are not asking the ECB do anything qualitatively different than what it has already done, only quantitatively.

Third, you cannot have a currency union without a common central bank and a common monetary policy. These things ought to have been implied within the meaning of joining into a single currency.
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« Reply #665 on: May 16, 2012, 03:53:29 pm »

Why isn't TheNationalist/TheNazi banned yet?
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« Reply #666 on: May 16, 2012, 03:56:45 pm »
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Why isn't TheNationalist/TheNazi banned yet?

Looks like mods are slow on IP checking...
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Charlotte Hebdo
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« Reply #667 on: May 16, 2012, 04:04:55 pm »
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Why isn't TheNationalist/TheNazi banned yet?
Because Greece is a democracy?
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« Reply #668 on: May 16, 2012, 05:02:25 pm »
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Why isn't TheNationalist/TheNazi banned yet?
Because Greece is a democracy?

We are talking of Atlas poster, on the forum.
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« Reply #669 on: May 16, 2012, 06:54:48 pm »
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I've already started withdrawing my money and sending them to Cyprus.

Better send it to UK.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #670 on: May 16, 2012, 06:57:05 pm »
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I've already started withdrawing my money and sending them to Cyprus.

Better send it to UK.

Difficult. I must go in person there and open an account, and probably give proof that I have a residence there too.
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« Reply #671 on: May 16, 2012, 07:09:48 pm »
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Residence? For the moment you are still in EU, aren't you? So, even if they ask for it, establishing residence shouldn't be hard.

Anyway, I still have some cash in a Spanish account - I should use it to buy stuff ASAP.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 07:23:27 pm by ag »Logged

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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #672 on: May 17, 2012, 12:32:40 am »
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Residence? For the moment you are still in EU, aren't you? So, even if they ask for it, establishing residence shouldn't be hard.


You know the UK, they must be different in everything they do from the continent.
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« Reply #673 on: May 17, 2012, 12:35:24 am »
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px, who did you vote for/will vote for?
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #674 on: May 17, 2012, 12:50:41 am »
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px, who did you vote for/will vote for?

I mentioned before the elections that I'd vote for DISY on May 6.

This time I'll wait and see. If the first place is contested then I might be forced to hold my nose and vote for ND, just to stop those SYRIZA clowns from taking us back to the drachma.
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