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batmacumba
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« Reply #825 on: May 29, 2012, 02:50:58 pm »
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Well, I know It's a feeble comparision, but people who doesn't pay taxes here would be extremely glad if They'd be able to do It. And I was only able to do It after I stopped doing things as a professional and started being juridically an enterprise. I would also like to remember that the stimulus for overdebt/overcomsumption on southern UE was the core of northern UE countries policies. Pretty hypocritical to blame them now.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. The money transferred from the richer parts of Europe, wasn't loans, but mostly free support to development of infrastructure and agricultural support. The debt the Greek has build up here, is a result of them being member of the Euro, which meant that they could sell low interest bonds. It wouldn't have been such a big problem, if they hadn't hidden the size of their debt, by lying about the degree of tax evasion and money lost to corruption, until the point there they couldn't hide it anymore (when the crisis began and the American bank which had helped them conning the rest of EU, suddenly couldn't/wouldn't help them with the con anymore). This is the primary reason, that few net contributor to EU are willing to let the Greeks off the hook.

If that was the problem, It would struck only on them, not on the whole UE periphery. I must agree It made things worse, but It seems ingenuity to believe the central UE members and institutions weren't just seen It and were caught by surprise. In the other side of the ocean, a nobody whose main work is with built cultural heritage was aware they did tricks, I suppose, even the exact tricks weren't publicly known, the responsible staff at Brussels, Berlin or whateverwhere should had tracked and be prepared for It, if they were really responsible.
The money directly transferred wasn't the main issue here, but how things were done. I'm not aware of Danemark's specific case, but the rule was to export to the peripheral countries and be very glad they were avid consumers, relying the core of their economy on monetarist policies, father than building up more relyable economic bases.
Than, the structural problem of European consensus came down, hit one by one and was specially mean on economies floating in the air, as monetarist recipes prescribe. Than everyone comes (including those who were very fine with the previous situation, thanks) and points their fingers: "the problem was that you were a mean kid! It's all your fault!".
To me, this is obvious scapegoating.
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ingemann
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« Reply #826 on: May 29, 2012, 03:22:27 pm »
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Well, I know It's a feeble comparision, but people who doesn't pay taxes here would be extremely glad if They'd be able to do It. And I was only able to do It after I stopped doing things as a professional and started being juridically an enterprise. I would also like to remember that the stimulus for overdebt/overcomsumption on southern UE was the core of northern UE countries policies. Pretty hypocritical to blame them now.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. The money transferred from the richer parts of Europe, wasn't loans, but mostly free support to development of infrastructure and agricultural support. The debt the Greek has build up here, is a result of them being member of the Euro, which meant that they could sell low interest bonds. It wouldn't have been such a big problem, if they hadn't hidden the size of their debt, by lying about the degree of tax evasion and money lost to corruption, until the point there they couldn't hide it anymore (when the crisis began and the American bank which had helped them conning the rest of EU, suddenly couldn't/wouldn't help them with the con anymore). This is the primary reason, that few net contributor to EU are willing to let the Greeks off the hook.

If that was the problem, It would struck only on them, not on the whole UE periphery. I must agree It made things worse, but It seems ingenuity to believe the central UE members and institutions weren't just seen It and were caught by surprise. In the other side of the ocean, a nobody whose main work is with built cultural heritage was aware they did tricks, I suppose, even the exact tricks weren't publicly known, the responsible staff at Brussels, Berlin or whateverwhere should had tracked and be prepared for It, if they were really responsible.
The money directly transferred wasn't the main issue here, but how things were done. I'm not aware of Danemark's specific case, but the rule was to export to the peripheral countries and be very glad they were avid consumers, relying the core of their economy on monetarist policies, father than building up more relyable economic bases.
Than, the structural problem of European consensus came down, hit one by one and was specially mean on economies floating in the air, as monetarist recipes prescribe. Than everyone comes (including those who were very fine with the previous situation, thanks) and points their fingers: "the problem was that you were a mean kid! It's all your fault!".
To me, this is obvious scapegoating.

I don't follow the logic. What precisely do you want people to do, keep sending money to Greece? We can talk as much as we want about scapegoating and it being everybody else but the Greeks fault that they evaded tax, stole and in general behaved deeply irresponsable, it doesn't change the fact that there are two possible scenarios. Greece keep on going as they have done in decades or they change. The other Euro countries with Germany in charge has told them that the former is unacceptable. That's not scapegoating that's a intervention.
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batmacumba
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« Reply #827 on: May 29, 2012, 10:40:26 pm »
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Well, I know It's a feeble comparision, but people who doesn't pay taxes here would be extremely glad if They'd be able to do It. And I was only able to do It after I stopped doing things as a professional and started being juridically an enterprise. I would also like to remember that the stimulus for overdebt/overcomsumption on southern UE was the core of northern UE countries policies. Pretty hypocritical to blame them now.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. The money transferred from the richer parts of Europe, wasn't loans, but mostly free support to development of infrastructure and agricultural support. The debt the Greek has build up here, is a result of them being member of the Euro, which meant that they could sell low interest bonds. It wouldn't have been such a big problem, if they hadn't hidden the size of their debt, by lying about the degree of tax evasion and money lost to corruption, until the point there they couldn't hide it anymore (when the crisis began and the American bank which had helped them conning the rest of EU, suddenly couldn't/wouldn't help them with the con anymore). This is the primary reason, that few net contributor to EU are willing to let the Greeks off the hook.

If that was the problem, It would struck only on them, not on the whole UE periphery. I must agree It made things worse, but It seems ingenuity to believe the central UE members and institutions weren't just seen It and were caught by surprise. In the other side of the ocean, a nobody whose main work is with built cultural heritage was aware they did tricks, I suppose, even the exact tricks weren't publicly known, the responsible staff at Brussels, Berlin or whateverwhere should had tracked and be prepared for It, if they were really responsible.
The money directly transferred wasn't the main issue here, but how things were done. I'm not aware of Danemark's specific case, but the rule was to export to the peripheral countries and be very glad they were avid consumers, relying the core of their economy on monetarist policies, father than building up more relyable economic bases.
Than, the structural problem of European consensus came down, hit one by one and was specially mean on economies floating in the air, as monetarist recipes prescribe. Than everyone comes (including those who were very fine with the previous situation, thanks) and points their fingers: "the problem was that you were a mean kid! It's all your fault!".
To me, this is obvious scapegoating.

I don't follow the logic. What precisely do you want people to do, keep sending money to Greece? We can talk as much as we want about scapegoating and it being everybody else but the Greeks fault that they evaded tax, stole and in general behaved deeply irresponsable, it doesn't change the fact that there are two possible scenarios. Greece keep on going as they have done in decades or they change. The other Euro countries with Germany in charge has told them that the former is unacceptable. That's not scapegoating that's a intervention.

Ingemann, the logic is that, apart from creative financial management, they did what they were expected to do. Everybody is closing the eyes to this and keeps only remembering their ways as smart-asses. Their tricks May be associated with, but were clearly not the central cause, and using that as the main rhetorical point for intervention is mean. It would have happend anyway, with or without evasion. And if the main issues don't come to the center of the debate, you folks will be faded to not getting out of this mess.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #828 on: May 30, 2012, 02:56:48 am »
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New poll from GPO, the 6th in a row that shows SYRIZA falling behind ND. The trend is undeniable now.

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« Reply #829 on: May 30, 2012, 03:09:58 am »
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Why does PASOK even exist now, let alone still obtain a respectable share? Surely those who want EU-backed austerity can just vote ND, and the old days of party patronage must be over for good.
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« Reply #830 on: May 30, 2012, 09:22:35 am »
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Why does PASOK even exist now, let alone still obtain a respectable share? Surely those who want EU-backed austerity can just vote ND, and the old days of party patronage must be over for good.

If KKE can get 6% even when a viable leftist party exists, then PASOK can certainly survive.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #831 on: May 30, 2012, 09:29:31 am »
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px, what does the other stuff on that page below mean ?

http://www.epikaira.gr/epikairo.php?id=43642&categories_id=69
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #832 on: May 30, 2012, 10:33:50 am »
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px, what does the other stuff on that page below mean ?

http://www.epikaira.gr/epikairo.php?id=43642&categories_id=69

Ignore that poll. It was commissioned by Epikaira, a conspiracy-peddling publication with no credibility whatsoever. Even if the topiline numbers were correct, it would still be a bad result for SYRIZA since two weeks ago they showed it more than 6 points ahead of ND.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #833 on: May 30, 2012, 10:35:47 am »
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px, what does the other stuff on that page below mean ?

http://www.epikaira.gr/epikairo.php?id=43642&categories_id=69

Ignore that poll. It was commissioned by Epikaira, a conspiracy-peddling publication with no credibility whatsoever. Even if the topiline numbers were correct, it would still be a bad result for SYRIZA since two weeks ago they showed it more than 6 points ahead of ND.

But VPRC looked like the best pollster to me in the 1st election.
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« Reply #834 on: May 30, 2012, 10:49:08 am »
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Why does PASOK even exist now, let alone still obtain a respectable share? Surely those who want EU-backed austerity can just vote ND, and the old days of party patronage must be over for good.

PASOK still has some strongholds where patronage no doubt works (like Crete), and honestly will probably surge back into government if either ND or SYRIZA messes up after taking over.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #835 on: May 30, 2012, 10:59:36 am »
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px, what does the other stuff on that page below mean ?

http://www.epikaira.gr/epikairo.php?id=43642&categories_id=69

Ignore that poll. It was commissioned by Epikaira, a conspiracy-peddling publication with no credibility whatsoever. Even if the topiline numbers were correct, it would still be a bad result for SYRIZA since two weeks ago they showed it more than 6 points ahead of ND.

But VPRC looked like the best pollster to me in the 1st election.

Maybe they were, I haven't checked it out. But after six straight polls showing virtually the same results I'm skeptical about today's numbers. And their client makes me even more so.
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« Reply #836 on: May 30, 2012, 12:58:22 pm »
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You can't really judge a pollster by its client.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #837 on: May 30, 2012, 02:34:47 pm »
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You can't really judge a pollster by its client.

Here in Greece you can. The client almost always gets what he pays for.
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Peter the Lefty
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« Reply #838 on: May 30, 2012, 07:08:38 pm »
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Why does PASOK even exist now, let alone still obtain a respectable share? Surely those who want EU-backed austerity can just vote ND, and the old days of party patronage must be over for good.

PASOK still has some strongholds where patronage no doubt works (like Crete), and honestly will probably surge back into government if either ND or SYRIZA messes up after taking over.
How could they possibly win back votes in other places? 
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« Reply #839 on: May 30, 2012, 08:03:52 pm »
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So what would be the process by which Greece was kicked out of the Eurozone? Which European bodies would make the decision? Would it even be legal to do so? At this point I kinda want to see SYRIZA win just to see the frantic activity that would result.

It could be done although I think they would need to amend the treaties first as my understanding is other than Denmark and the UK (who sought opt-outs in the Maastrict Treaty), every other country and any future member must join the Euro and cannot leave or be kicked out.  Most of the rules governing the Euro were made in the 90s when many dreamed of the idea of a European superstate without actually having a clue as to how it would work.
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Charlotte Hebdo
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« Reply #840 on: May 31, 2012, 04:45:54 am »
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So what would be the process by which Greece was kicked out of the Eurozone? Which European bodies would make the decision? Would it even be legal to do so? At this point I kinda want to see SYRIZA win just to see the frantic activity that would result.

It could be done although I think they would need to amend the treaties first as my understanding is other than Denmark and the UK (who sought opt-outs in the Maastrict Treaty), every other country and any future member must join the Euro and cannot leave or be kicked out.  Most of the rules governing the Euro were made in the 90s when many dreamed of the idea of a European superstate without actually having a clue as to how it would work.
Thats correct, and Sweden stays out by not complying to one of the requirements for joining the Euro.
But if Greece where to leave, I am sure the EU would find a solution. Greece getting a similar exception as the UK and Denmark will in itself be one of the smaller problems in this crisis.
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« Reply #841 on: May 31, 2012, 10:03:52 am »
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Ingemann, the logic is that, apart from creative financial management, they did what they were expected to do. Everybody is closing the eyes to this and keeps only remembering their ways as smart-asses. Their tricks May be associated with, but were clearly not the central cause, and using that as the main rhetorical point for intervention is mean. It would have happend anyway, with or without evasion. And if the main issues don't come to the center of the debate, you folks will be faded to not getting out of this mess.

I fail to see how its anybody but the Greeks fault that they cheated, yes most expected some fraud in Greece, but no one had a idea of the scale, and the major problem was as long as it wasn't or couldn't be proved, no one was going to make accusations. When we now have the knowledge of the scale and but also hard proffs, no one is going to send more money, before they are sure that they aren't wasted.
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« Reply #842 on: May 31, 2012, 01:54:15 pm »
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New poll from GPO, the 6th in a row that shows SYRIZA falling behind ND. The trend is undeniable now.


These polls all seem to be within the margin of error which is around 3%, so the reality is that this will be a tight race, and that's all we can say definitively.  A poll where the two top choices are withing the margin of error is a statistical tie for all intents and purposes.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 01:56:12 pm by Amorphous »Logged
Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #843 on: May 31, 2012, 02:00:51 pm »
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New poll from GPO, the 6th in a row that shows SYRIZA falling behind ND. The trend is undeniable now.


These polls all seem to be within the margin of error which is around 3%, so the reality is that this will be a tight race, and that's all we can say definitively.  A poll where the two top choices are withing the margin of error is a statistical tie for all intents and purposes.

You said the same thing the other day. If six polls show the same result, even within the margin of error, then what is the chance that they are ALL wrong?

And anyway, today we had three more. Two of them showed yet again ND ahead by a couple of points and one showed a tie. Compare these numbers to the unmistakable high single digit SYRIZA lead that everybody found the first 10 days after the May 6th election.
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« Reply #844 on: May 31, 2012, 02:11:24 pm »
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I'm particular loathe to accept at face value polls that exclude those who are undecided and that are within the margin of error.  The question is, how many were excluded due to being undecided?  Who are undecided voters likely to break for?  Unless you can answer that question, the "trend" you cite is meaningless especially in light of the margin of error.

A classic example is the Lisbon treaty vote in Ireland.  Everyone assumed it was a slam dunk due to polls showing the Yes votes with an advantage, but what the mainstream media ignored was the large percentage of undecided voters before the actual vote.  These undecided voters broke for 'No' and the Lisbon Treaty lost.
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batmacumba
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« Reply #845 on: May 31, 2012, 03:16:42 pm »
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Ingemann, the logic is that, apart from creative financial management, they did what they were expected to do. Everybody is closing the eyes to this and keeps only remembering their ways as smart-asses. Their tricks May be associated with, but were clearly not the central cause, and using that as the main rhetorical point for intervention is mean. It would have happend anyway, with or without evasion. And if the main issues don't come to the center of the debate, you folks will be faded to not getting out of this mess.

I fail to see how its anybody but the Greeks fault that they cheated, yes most expected some fraud in Greece, but no one had a idea of the scale, and the major problem was as long as it wasn't or couldn't be proved, no one was going to make accusations. When we now have the knowledge of the scale and but also hard proffs, no one is going to send more money, before they are sure that they aren't wasted.

Well, now It's me the one not following the logic: I kept defending through three posts that the issue are not the cheatings, that they are marginal, that the whole problem happens independently of their existence, and You kept ignoring my points and getting back to that. Also, as far as I'm aware, the demands put by the UE doesn't seem to focus on frauds but on cutting wellfare, independently of spreadsheet veracity.

If the whole issue was that poor financial management and frauds had led to the crisis, than there wouldn't be any arguing about. And also, It wouldn't reach the structural level It is now, neither would had started at other countrues. The problem here, again, is that's not the matter. The crisis exists without the evasion. And I dare say that the evasions helped the problem to be more bearable to the Greek population, but, again, this is not the issue at all. Please.
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« Reply #846 on: June 02, 2012, 09:47:13 pm »
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It's quite amazing how many people I know are planning to go on holiday in Greece in the near future.
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« Reply #847 on: June 02, 2012, 09:58:27 pm »
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I've seen it as a solidarity 'the Greeks are suffering, and tourism's big for the country, so we'll have a holiday there' thing.
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« Reply #848 on: June 03, 2012, 12:01:28 am »
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It's quite amazing how many people I know are planning to go on holiday in Greece in the near future.

Country in ruin or not, Greece is still amazing for we Brits abroad.
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« Reply #849 on: June 03, 2012, 06:24:17 am »
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New poll from GPO, the 6th in a row that shows SYRIZA falling behind ND. The trend is undeniable now.


These polls all seem to be within the margin of error which is around 3%, so the reality is that this will be a tight race, and that's all we can say definitively.  A poll where the two top choices are withing the margin of error is a statistical tie for all intents and purposes.

You said the same thing the other day. If six polls show the same result, even within the margin of error, then what is the chance that they are ALL wrong?

And anyway, today we had three more. Two of them showed yet again ND ahead by a couple of points and one showed a tie. Compare these numbers to the unmistakable high single digit SYRIZA lead that everybody found the first 10 days after the May 6th election.

That is correct. (well, technically, it's a rhetorical question so it can't be, but still Tongue)

It is also not true that a 6% difference is insignificant if the MoE is 3%.
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This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

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