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Author Topic: Greece 2012  (Read 59492 times)
Antonio V
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« Reply #1125 on: June 18, 2012, 06:53:37 am »
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Sorry, that's the only thing that came to my mind after reading your posts. There's no way to argue with such mind-numbed talking points. It's like arguing with AmericanNation or CaDan.
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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

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« Reply #1126 on: June 18, 2012, 06:54:46 am »
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     June 18 (Bloomberg) -- New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras
will meet Pasok head Evangelos Venizelos at 6 p.m.
in Athens today, New Democracy spokesman Chrisostomos Bikatzik
said in a telephone interview today.
     Samaras received a mandate to form a government
from President Karolos Papoulias earlier today after New
Democracy won elections yesterday. Pasok came third in the June
17 poll.
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« Reply #1127 on: June 18, 2012, 07:04:42 am »
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Sorry, that's the only thing that came to my mind after reading your posts. There's no way to argue with such mind-numbed talking points. It's like arguing with AmericanNation or CaDan.

A friendly advice - do not display such an elitist and self-righteous attitude towards people who have a different point of view. It's neither helpful on a forum nor in real life.
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Antonio V
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« Reply #1128 on: June 18, 2012, 07:41:37 am »
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Believe me, I don't like to. But I felt the need to express my feelings, because my despair reaches new heights every time I realize how widespread your "views" are.
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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

Peppino, from the movie Baaria
jaichind
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« Reply #1129 on: June 18, 2012, 07:52:20 am »
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Those of you who think German tax payers should pay for the rest of Europe without complaining or demanding anything in return...what principle is that based on?

If you've wasted all your money you can't really expect to get more with no questions asked.

I, for one, will not make sure an argument.  But such an argument can be made.  It is mostly based on the fact that lots of the Greek and Spanish troubles has its roots in German banks lending to their counterparts in Greece and Spain.  These loans, it turns out, were unsustainable.  While the Greeks and Spanish should take responsbility for this, it takes two sides for a loan to take place.  Where were the due dilgence of German banks?  Like I said, I do not posit this argument but I do feel one can make a case for this point of view.
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« Reply #1130 on: June 18, 2012, 11:05:36 am »
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Media coverage sucks. I'll extract one paragraph from NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/world/europe/greek-elections.html?ref=world

Quote
Even the most pro-Europe of Greece’s political parties, the conservative New Democracy, which came in first, has said a less austere agreement is crucial to a country with a 22 percent unemployment rate and the rising prospect of social unrest.

False statement: ND is not the most pro-Europe party in Greece; just remember that Samaras rejected the bailout when he was in the opposition. As all the Greek right-wing ND is staunchly nationalist. It's important to remark what I put in bold letters.

The Guardian another progressive-liberal media usually depicts Syriza as "far-left" and "anti-bailout" which is not correct. It´s more accurate if you say "anti-memorandum", i.e., opposed to the harsh austerity measures attached to the bailout.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/18/greek-election-coalition-government

Quote
Evangelos Venizelos, the former finance minister who oversaw the negotiations that secured Greece's second EU-IMF sponsored bailout package, has openly backed the need for reform even if, like Samaras, he also believes the loan agreement should be renegotiated to take some of the heat out of a society that has reached breaking point because of cutbacks. Combined, New Democracy and Pasok would control 162 seats.

If we identify Pro-Europe with Pro-Bailout, surely Evangelos Venizelos is the most europeist leader in Greece. Anyways Venizelos also believes that a renegotation is indispensable.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 01:27:16 pm by yellow brick road »Logged

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« Reply #1131 on: June 18, 2012, 01:38:04 pm »
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Sorry, that's the only thing that came to my mind after reading your posts. There's no way to argue with such mind-numbed talking points. It's like arguing with AmericanNation or CaDan.

A friendly advice - do not display such an elitist and self-righteous attitude towards people who have a different point of view. It's neither helpful on a forum nor in real life.
Well what can you do when faced with stuff like this
Schaüble...

I eagerly wait the day where some politician of another country says him than he is Germany's Finance minister and to stop putting his nose in other countries.

I'm not sure he would like if all foreign finance ministers said him what do to.

Well it's his business, considering lots of German money is at stake here. Don't like it? That's a problem caused by the EU. It's not as if Schäuble chose Greece to go bankrupt.

from somebody who didn't spend the summer of 2010 in a koma?
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« Reply #1132 on: June 18, 2012, 03:53:51 pm »
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Samaras received a mandate from the president to form a coalition, and a New Democracy source said the party expected to clinch a deal on Tuesday after Samaras met the third-placed PASOK Socialists and the small Democratic Left group.
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« Reply #1133 on: June 18, 2012, 04:27:57 pm »
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Those of you who think German tax payers should pay for the rest of Europe without complaining or demanding anything in return...what principle is that based on?

If you've wasted all your money you can't really expect to get more with no questions asked.

Three men are in a boat. One man falls asleep one night and the boat hits a rock. The boat now has a hole in it. One of the other men has a bucket. He asks the third man: 'Say, why do you want me to empty the boat? This is not my fault, and besides I once hurt my back rather badly while working and ever since I've had an irrational fear of physical exercise. I don't want us emptying the boat together eithe, since I don't belief in groups. Rather I feel we should make our friend drink all this water. He broke the boat; it's only right he should suffer.'

One day later the first man dies an agonizing death due to all the salty water he was made to drink. The very next day both other men drown.

Not very inspired as an analogy, I know.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 04:30:17 pm by Tussen Droom en Daad »Logged

They call me PR
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« Reply #1134 on: June 18, 2012, 04:51:43 pm »
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President Obama has praised the results in Greece:



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Barack Obama hailed the Greek election results as offering a glimmer of hope in a eurozone crisis that is threatening to undermine the US recovery and the president's chances of re-election.

In his first comment on Sunday's election, Obama told reporters at the G20 summit in Mexico on Monday that the Greek election offered a "positive prospect".

That endorsement went much further than most other world leaders, particularly European ones, who have been much more circumspect in their reaction.

The White House has been watching in desperation at European leaders have bounced from summit to summit, leaving the crisis unresolved.

Although Obama needs a quick fix to the eurozone crisis, European leaders cautioned against expecting any solutions to emerge from the G20 summit, the gathering of the most advanced economies.

The euro crisis is acting a drag on business and consumer confidence in the US but the Obama administration has opted against injecting into Europe the billions of dollars that might help stabilise it, partly because it would be near impossible to get such a package through Congress.

Obama, at a meeting with Mexican president Felipe Calderon, who is hosting the summit, told reporters it was going to be a busy day and a half: "The world is very concerned about the slowing of growth that has taken place."

He added: "Now is a time as we've discussed to make sure that all of us do what's necessary to stabilise the world financial system, to avoid protectionism."

The White House issued a bland statement on Sunday welcoming the Greek vote and hoping its government would make "timely progress" on the economic challenges it faces. European leaders want Greece to make deep spending cuts in return for a rescue package.

Obama, who had spent the weekend having a break in Chicago, adopted a more positive tone on Monday than the White House statement from Sunday. "I think the election in Greece yesterday indicates a positive prospect for not only them forming a government, but also them working constructively with their international partners in order that they can continue on the path of reform and do so in a way that also offers the prospects for the Greek people to succeed and prosper," Obama said.

"And we are going to be working under your leadership and with our European partners, and with all countries, to make sure that we're contributing so that the economy grows, the situation stabilises, confidence returns to the markets and, most importantly we're giving our people the chance if they work hard to succeed and do well."

The summit will allow the Europeans to take "one important step in a series of steps that are going to be required to continue to improve global economic prospects," he said.

In spite of Obama's words, the main decisions are unlikely to be made at the summit but at meetings later in Europe, where there is remaining scepticism about whether Greece might yet have to leave the eurozone and also about the future of other members, such as Spain.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/18/barack-obama-greek-elections-positive?newsfeed=true
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« Reply #1135 on: June 18, 2012, 04:58:16 pm »
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Samaras received a mandate from the president to form a coalition, and a New Democracy source said the party expected to clinch a deal on Tuesday after Samaras met the third-placed PASOK Socialists and the small Democratic Left group.


Interesting that DIMAR's even considering it...
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« Reply #1136 on: June 18, 2012, 07:46:50 pm »
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Not very inspired as an analogy, I know.

... really you couldn't think of a better analogy? Really, nothing at all?

Firstly it's not like Germany hasn't already spent billions of euros trying to save failing European economies, thereby in difference to your analogy definatley using its bucket. But emptying the boat is rather pointless if there is still a bloody HOLE in it. It's quite reasonable to demand the guy responsible for the accident to try to fix it.

I'm guessing the stupidity of sailing in the middle of dark night is representing the stupidity of the idea of the Euro.     
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« Reply #1137 on: June 19, 2012, 05:02:13 am »
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Believe me, I don't like to. But I felt the need to express my feelings, because my despair reaches new heights every time I realize how widespread your "views" are.

The hard reality for your kind of answering usually is the lack of good arguments and the lack of competence on the issues treated
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Antonio V
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« Reply #1138 on: June 19, 2012, 05:08:36 am »
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Anybody who has taken time to actually argue on this issue knows that I do have arguments. Whether they are good or not is left to your judgement.
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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

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politicus
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« Reply #1139 on: June 19, 2012, 06:01:07 am »
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Election result:
 
ND 129
 
Syriza 71
 
Pasok 33
 
ANEL 20
 
XA 18
 
DIMAR 17
 
KKE 12
 

ND + Pasok = 162

Anti-austerity: 138

How long would an ND/Pasok coalition last with such a relatively narrow majority? Anyone wants to bet 10.000 Euros there is going to be a new election within 6 months?

Why is Pasok even interested in taking part in such a government
 



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Antonio V
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« Reply #1140 on: June 19, 2012, 06:11:15 am »
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Why is Pasok even interested in taking part in such a government

They have to. I might have supported Syriza, but ND has won fair and square and Greece's interest is to have a stable government. If Dimar could be brought into it (I'm sure they don't want to, but still) it would be even better.
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22:15   ComradeSibboleth   this is all extremely terrible and in all respects absolutely fycking dire.

It really is.



"A reformist is someone who realizes that, when you bang your head on a wall, it's the head that breaks rather than the wall."

Peppino, from the movie Baaria
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« Reply #1141 on: June 19, 2012, 06:15:00 am »
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Why is Pasok even interested in taking part in such a government

They have to. I might have supported Syriza, but ND has won fair and square and Greece's interest is to have a stable government. If Dimar could be brought into it (I'm sure they don't want to, but still) it would be even better.
You a being a bit too deterministic. A party never has to take part in a government, they can choose not to for a number of reasons - including self interest.
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jaichind
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« Reply #1142 on: June 19, 2012, 06:57:45 am »
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Looks like it will be ND-PASOK-DIMAR.  DIMAR was always on the fence on the Memorandum.  Of course after the last election ND-PASOK-DIMAR was the only viable coalition but PASOK and DIMAR said no.  Now after market chaos and Greece getting close to the brink, they finally has come to their senses.  That is the way things ought to be, when you do something stupid, the market will punish you and then you better be with the picture. 



     June 19 (Bloomberg) -- Democratic Left leader Fotis
Kouvelis said it was possible that an agreement on a Greek
coalition government could be reached in the next few hours.
     “Agreement on a policy roadmap is the definitive point to
form a government,” Kouvelis said after meeting with Pasok
leader Evangelos Venizelos in Athens today. “The process is
speeding up. It is possible that in the next few hours, or
within the day, a government can be decided.”
     He spoke in Athens in comments carried live on state-run
NET TV.
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« Reply #1143 on: June 19, 2012, 07:48:20 am »
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My bet is that, while PASOK will work their damned hardest to look like they're trying, they'll sabotage the negotiations subtly(or not so subtly through insistence that SYRIZA participate). The reason being that if ND fails to form a government in three days SYRIZA gets the opportunity(they'll fail), and then PASOK gets their shot.

Then theirs DIMAR. They may want a coalition government for fear of their vote share falling if a third election is held... but they'd probably prefer that PASOK rather then ND head that government since PASOK is closer to DIMAR's platform(indeed many DIMAR members are former members of PASOK), and a PASOK led government would outrage their voters more then an ND one would.

Then it comes down to ND's decision: would they rather accept PASOK formed coalition to avoid the specter of a third election that SYRIZA might win?... or do they risk another role of the dice instead.
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« Reply #1144 on: June 19, 2012, 08:09:06 am »
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I agree with Antonio. I supported SIRYZA, but after the election, I think the best for Greece, Europe, and Spain, is a stable government led by the winner (Samaras) but supported by the centre-left. A third election would be a disaster.. And Greeks have already said for the second time in 2 months that they want ND to be the biggest party, and they've given ND-PASOK-DIMAR a majority in the Parliament twice... So, let's give an opportunity to Samaras, I won't start complaining until September :p
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My evolution (by The Political Matrix):
E: -6.06 -> -6.97 -> -6.97 -> -8.13 -> -7.29 -> -8.26 -> -8.65 -> -7.03
S: -6.78 -> -6.09 -> -7.30 -> -7.13 -> -8.09 -> -8.35 -> -9.04 -> -8.61
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« Reply #1145 on: June 19, 2012, 08:51:28 am »
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Looks like it will be ND-PASOK-DIMAR.  DIMAR was always on the fence on the Memorandum.  Of course after the last election ND-PASOK-DIMAR was the only viable coalition but PASOK and DIMAR said no.  Now after market chaos and Greece getting close to the brink, they finally has come to their senses.  That is the way things ought to be, when you do something stupid, the market will punish you and then you better be with the picture. 



     June 19 (Bloomberg) -- Democratic Left leader Fotis
Kouvelis said it was possible that an agreement on a Greek
coalition government could be reached in the next few hours.
     “Agreement on a policy roadmap is the definitive point to
form a government,” Kouvelis said after meeting with Pasok
leader Evangelos Venizelos in Athens today. “The process is
speeding up. It is possible that in the next few hours, or
within the day, a government can be decided.”
     He spoke in Athens in comments carried live on state-run
NET TV.
Stockholm syndrome. Greeks love their oppressors now.
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« Reply #1146 on: June 19, 2012, 09:00:07 am »
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Not very inspired as an analogy, I know.

... really you couldn't think of a better analogy? Really, nothing at all?

Firstly it's not like Germany hasn't already spent billions of euros trying to save failing European economies, thereby in difference to your analogy definatley using its bucket. But emptying the boat is rather pointless if there is still a bloody HOLE in it. It's quite reasonable to demand the guy responsible for the accident to try to fix it.

I'm guessing the stupidity of sailing in the middle of dark night is representing the stupidity of the idea of the Euro.     

Belgian's analogy would be better if it was a long voyage, the hole had been only formed over time with termites and the "Germany" character initially told the "Greek" character to pretend that no termites existed (even though they both knew they did). That would have been one improvement.
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« Reply #1147 on: June 19, 2012, 10:17:57 am »
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  That is the way things ought to be, when you do something stupid, the market will punish you and then you better be with the picture. 

The markets punish you even if you are an obedient pupil. See Spain.

ND-PASOK-Dimar seems to be the less worse in the present circumstances.
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« Reply #1148 on: June 19, 2012, 10:51:38 am »
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  That is the way things ought to be, when you do something stupid, the market will punish you and then you better be with the picture. 

The markets punish you even if you are an obedient pupil. See Spain.

ND-PASOK-Dimar seems to be the less worse in the present circumstances.

A KKE-XA coalition would probably be less worse then the current circumstances, at least we would have certainty and know to stay far away from Greece for a few years. And you're half right about Spain. The Spanish government is working with Europe, but the Spanish regions are unobidient children dragging the whole country into uncertainty and debt. If the Spanish government didn't have them to deal with I have no doubt Spain wouldn't be the main country on the market's radar.
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« Reply #1149 on: June 19, 2012, 11:09:52 am »
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Are you talking seriously, Dereich? Do you want Greece expelled and with this odd XA-KKE coalition in office? There is too much to say about Spanish regions (or "autonomies") but your statement is essentially false. They are a part of the problem, of course, but they have only a little share. The big mess is in the banks and in the private debt, all consequencies of the real estate bubble.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 12:38:11 pm by yellow brick road »Logged

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