Greece 2012

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What's the threshold to get any seats?

[SPQR]

What's the threshold to get any seats?

3%.

So is an ND+Anel+Laos gov't possible?

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Why are KKE and Syriza so against each other?
Left vs hard left...both against austerity...

[SPQR]

Why are KKE and Syriza so against each other?
Left vs hard left...both against austerity...

Historical tensions... two decades ago they were in an alliance and then had a falling out

LOL
Talk about short-sightedness.

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149 seats for Pasok+ND...

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If somehow funds are cut off from Greece yet the country remains on the euro still, the situation might still be salvaged. As I understand it, popular support for remaining on the euro remains much higher than popular support for austerity. If Greeks saw for a brief time what life is like without external funding, public opinion may change. Let us say government services are shut down, it is like the strikes in the UK in 1974 or 1979. At the same time, Germany must give Greece more time to fulfill its obligations, as well as stimulate its own economy.

Since Greek Euro membership is the main problem now, thats not a good solution.

At the same time,they can't quit the Euro without quitting the EU.

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Syriza must win this, then the new government must go tell Merkel that either they get the money they need or the whole eurozone goes down.

The reports I've seen in the last several days seem to indicate that Greece leaving the Eurozone wouldn't actually be the end of the world. Even if the extreme left-wing wants it to be true.

The reports I've seen seem to indicate lots of trouble for Spanish and Italian banks...

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Yeah, that meanie doesn't want to give me his money...guess I should hold a gun to his head. Right, Antonio?

I guess you know that it has never been about actually giving any money, right ?

If SYRIZA wins, it was a lot of money given.

Well, we wouldn't be there if the German governments didn't bullied neoliberalism on all Europe...

You know, I do think you're rather simplifying this problem. I think several things happened that even made this situation possible, such as forming a common currency in the first place, not to mention the corrupt former Greek governments falsifying their data and so on to get in.

Or such as SOME governments not giving a crap about other governments falsifying their data,because what was important was respecting the Maastricht criteria on time,so that we could get a common currency in a context that would favour only SOME countries.
Oh,btw,there is an OCSE research that demonstrates how all the European countries falsified their data in order to respect the criteria. That's the same OCSE research that Der Spiegel used a few days ago. Obviously,they used it only to attack Italy...it's clear that Monti's proposal for growth is not liked by someone over there.

Also,how come nobody mentions the fact that the limits imposed by the Stability and Growth Pact were not respected by GERMANY AND FRANCE, and that the European Council of Ministers decided not to sanction them,and that the European Court of Justice afterwards imposed a reform of the pact,otherwise the sanctions had to be applied?

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This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common european currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a european government responsible to a european parliament that has direct taxation authority over the european population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.

No no, it must be done in the SAME moment, or better, first a unique fiscal authorithy with a control on any expense of any state in cluding Greece, and THEN the eurobond as a consequence. This implies that laws about greek pensions, for instance, are not anymore possible, not with money of fiscal disciplined peopleo of Germany, Austria, Finland, Netherlands, Northern Italy.

Ahah yeah sure,the same "fiscal disciplined people of Northern Italy" who have ridicolous tax evasion rates.
Please...

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This is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are two options : either we accept the idea of a common currency, with everything it entails (including eurobonds), or we definitely settle on the old-fashioned selfish nationalist logic with everything it entails (ie abandoning Euro). Both these choices are absolutely legitimate (even though I think the second would be an economic suicide). All what I want is some consistency in reasoning.

The idea of the common european currency entails not merely eurobonds, but a european government responsible to a european parliament that has direct taxation authority over the european population. Unless you are willing to share you real president with the German voters, you aren't accepting what a common currency entails.

You are absolutely right, I couldn't agree more. All this is what should come next. But you can't do everything at once. The next step is Eurobonds, then something else, etc. until we have a complete European Federation.

No no, it must be done in the SAME moment, or better, first a unique fiscal authorithy with a control on any expense of any state in cluding Greece, and THEN the eurobond as a consequence. This implies that laws about greek pensions, for instance, are not anymore possible, not with money of fiscal disciplined peopleo of Germany, Austria, Finland, Netherlands, Northern Italy.

Ahah yeah sure,the same "fiscal disciplined people of Northern Italy" who have ridicolous tax evasion rates.
Please...

It's one of the lowest rate in europe, the same of Germany or Finland, as hugely demonstrated many and many times

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That image does show Northern Italy as a low evasion zone.

Of course, whoever counted? Whoever defined evasion? Heck, whoever claimed Germany was a low tax evasion country?

If you look at the bottom,it shows how the amount of money evaded in the North is larger than that of the rest of Italy combined...

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That image does show Northern Italy as a low evasion zone.

Of course, whoever counted? Whoever defined evasion? Heck, whoever claimed Germany was a low tax evasion country?

If you look at the bottom,it shows how the amount of money evaded in the North is larger than that of the rest of Italy combined...

That's a rather dishonest way of comparing, you know.

It would be if I were trying to prove that the evasion in the South is lower.

All I am trying to say is that the North is no paradise.

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My gut feeling is that ND is going to beat out SYRIZA.  It should be something like
ND       29
SYRIZA 25
PASOK  10

At this stage the desire to get to a stable governement should be overriding all other concerns. This should be enough for ND-PASOK to get a slim majority. 

lol why would Greeks want a stable government? It's pretty clear 80% of them hate Germany so they might as well go suicide bomb it.

Yeah, that'll teach us a lesson. It's attitudes like this that make me certain that the entire Euro is a stupid idea. Mooch off of the participants that are responsible and then throw a fit when mummy won't tolerate it any longer.

For their own sake, I hope the Greek voters are more responsible than that. It'd heard them a lot more than us.

Europe fed Greeks well enough before Euro.

This.
And Europe was the one which closed both eyes when Greece,Austria,Germany and 90% of the countries were falsifying their budgets so that they could be within the Maastricht Criteria...

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XA once again strong...bleah.