GET OVER IT REPUBLICANS, ROSSI LOST

[J. J.]

These are reports, not verifications.  Investigate, get the evidence, and I'll be much more favorably inclined to see a revote.

For example, an address might be a private mailbox, but that does not mean that the voter is not legitimate.  It is entirely possible that all of those improperly (and I'll agree it was improperly) fed into the counting machines may have all come from legitimate voters.

Proof first, then, if necessary, remedy.

[CARLHAYDEN]

JJ,

Check any of the Gubenatorial elections held in Presidential election years and you will consistently find fewer persons voting for Govenor that voted in the election.

This is known as 'roll-off.'

What happens is that some people who vote for President choose to not vote for Govenor (which comes after the federal offices on the ballot).

This is particularly true for new residents of a state and young/first time voters who may have little or no knowledge of the Gubenatorial candidates and came out to vote for President.

So, even in a hotly contested Gubenatorial race the vote for Govenor is typically less than the vote for President.

According to King county, there were 893,534 votes cast for President,  Hence the votes counted for President far exceeds the number of persons who can be shown to have voted.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Here's what SUSA (a survey research firm which has typically leaned Democrat) says about the opinion of the people of the State of Washington:

SPOKANE, WA.USA - An Exclusive KHQ NewsPoll shows 3 of 5 in Washington State want a new election in the governor's race.

An Exclusive KHQ NewsPoll conducted by Survey USA shows, 62% in the State of Washington say there should be a new election to re-vote on the governor's race.The survey was conducted January 10 and 11, 2005, and 36% statewide say there should not be a new election.

A re-vote is supported by 76% of Republicans and 64% of Independents.In Eastern Washington 59% of those polled back a re-vote, 61% in the Seattle area back a re-vote.

Democrats oppose a re-vote, but even among Democrats, it is close:45% support holding a new election, 52% say they oppose it.

This is a survey of 600 adult respondents from Washington State.Overall results considered significant +/- 4%.Results may not add to 100%, because percentages are rounded to whole numbers.

[ATFFL]

Congratulations Washington!  You're officially a third world country!

Fraudulent elections and preference for Osama over Bush.  I can't believe Democrats are actually proud that Murray survived.

Before we go screaming "fraud," let's let the investigation process play itself out.  For all I know, Rossi lost fair and square.  Wait for the evidence and, if it appears that there are enough irregularities to thow the election, I'll be screaming "fraud" as well.

I'm into calling it fraud now that I have a personal connection to it.  A friend of mine has been going to school in WA for 6 years now.  Never registered to vote out there because he always planned on moving back to NY when done.  He voted by absentee every year from his parent's address on Long Island.

He just found out that he was registered to vote in King County Washington and he voted absentee there this year.

hehe, that's proof if I ever heard of it. 

Yes, finding out you were registered without ever doing anything to register is pretty surprising.  FInding out you voted absentee is also a bit of a shock when you lived a block from the polling place, which you did not need since you voted absentee in another state already and never registered in Washington. 

J.J.  That there were about 1800 more voters than registered voters in King County is not unverified.  It comes from a simple check of voter rolls to the number of ballots.  It is shockingly simple and makes a strong case that there are 1800 illegal ballots in the count.

[J. J.]

JJ,

Check any of the Gubenatorial elections held in Presidential election years and you will consistently find fewer persons voting for Govenor that voted in the election.

This is known as 'roll-off.'

What happens is that some people who vote for President choose to not vote for Govenor (which comes after the federal offices on the ballot).

This is particularly true for new residents of a state and young/first time voters who may have little or no knowledge of the Gubenatorial candidates and came out to vote for President.

So, even in a hotly contested Gubenatorial race the vote for Govenor is typically less than the vote for President.

According to King county, there were 893,534 votes cast for President,  Hence the votes counted for President far exceeds the number of persons who can be shown to have voted.

Roll off does not constitute proof.  Interesting, yes.  Something that should draw attention, yes.  Proof, no.

My point is that it is very possible that voters decided to abstain for president, but decided to vote for governor.

[J. J.]

Yes, finding out you were registered without ever doing anything to register is pretty surprising.  FInding out you voted absentee is also a bit of a shock when you lived a block from the polling place, which you did not need since you voted absentee in another state already and never registered in Washington. 

J.J.  That there were about 1800 more voters than registered voters in King County is not unverified.  It comes from a simple check of voter rolls to the number of ballots.  It is shockingly simple and makes a strong case that there are 1800 illegal ballots in the count.

Tredrick, so far, there have been three or four reported cases, not even proven at this point, of someone not having voted who are recorded as having voted.  When that number reaches 129, you will have a good point.  We are not there as of this point.

Second, the list of registered votes is not complete.  Those 1800 voters may be very legitimate.

Look, I'm 100% in favor of continuing investigations of this, but before we get to the point screaming for a revote or overturning the election results by judical action, get some proof, not suspicions.

[Nym90]

Yes, finding out you were registered without ever doing anything to register is pretty surprising.  FInding out you voted absentee is also a bit of a shock when you lived a block from the polling place, which you did not need since you voted absentee in another state already and never registered in Washington. 

J.J.  That there were about 1800 more voters than registered voters in King County is not unverified.  It comes from a simple check of voter rolls to the number of ballots.  It is shockingly simple and makes a strong case that there are 1800 illegal ballots in the count.

Tredrick, so far, there have been three or four reported cases, not even proven at this point, of someone not having voted who are recorded as having voted. When that number reaches 129, you will have a good point. We are not there as of this point.

Second, the list of registered votes is not complete. Those 1800 voters may be very legitimate.

Look, I'm 100% in favor of continuing investigations of this, but before we get to the point screaming for a revote or overturning the election results by judical action, get some proof, not suspicions.

In addition, is there any proof that these votes were cast for Gregoire?

It would seem to me that you'd have to prove not only that there were 129 illegal ballots, but rather that the number of illegal Gregoire votes exceeds the illegal Rossi votes by 129.

And in any event, if ballots can be proven to be invalid, I don't see why those invalid ballots can't just be thrown out. Why do we need a revote? Just toss the illlegal ballots, and adjust the count accordingly.

[J. J.]

In addition, is there any proof that these votes were cast for Gregoire?

It would seem to me that you'd have to prove not only that there were 129 illegal ballots, but rather that the number of illegal Gregoire votes exceeds the illegal Rossi votes by 129.

And in any event, if ballots can be proven to be invalid, I don't see why those invalid ballots can't just be thrown out. Why do we need a revote? Just toss the illlegal ballots, and adjust the count accordingly.

Okay, there are a couple of problems.  If there are illegall ballots, we might not know if they were cast for.  At the precinct level, it's possible that some could be factored out.  If Gregoire had 300 votes and Rossi 50 votes in one precinct, and it could be determined that there were 100 illegal ballots, we'd know that Gregoire had at least 50 illegal votes.  It's possible that this could be done, but it's unlikely.

You wouldn't have to prove that all the illegal ballots were for Gregoire to show that the result might have been affected by them.  That's the standard, and it's lower than proving Rossi won.  That's the problem I have with calling for a revote; there isn't a huge standard, in this case, and the WA courts have said that revoting can be an appropriate remedy.  It seems to be fairly easy to meet that standard, yet the people calling for a revote have yet to demonstrate that this standard has been met.

[Alcon]

Alcon,

If you're following this as closely as you say you have, then you are lying about one point.  You present Rossi as a willing participant in the second recount.  He had this to say about the prospect of a second recount:

"This really is sad and desperate," he said. "How much do they want to put the voters of Washington through? We were elected and certified twice. I have faith in voters; Christine Gregoire has faith in lawyers."

Alcon, you are so full of crap to say that Rossi happily went along with the recount.

I am well aware of the rule stipulating a second reoc**nt, I am also aware that Rossi won.  We won two out fo three, in most things that's good enough.  It seems that you, however, are not at all aware that this is in fact precedent for a re-vote, and that Washington has laws allowing for exactly this phenomenon.  And I have not asked for a re-vote by the way, so don't put words in my mouth saying I did.  I am simply asking for what is fair: For Dino Rossi, the rightful Governor of Washington, to be allowed to assume the office.  No revote is necessary, though it is allowed.

I want to reply to this because I forgot about it. Sorry.

I have been under the impression that the Republicans and Democrats agreed to this beforehand. In fact, I have read this in many places. I may be wrong, but if anything, it was because I was too trusting with the source. Looking back at my post, it sounded inappropriately aggressive - I apologize, and I do if I was wrong. However, this is what I have been told; I would not lie about something like this.

I personally think you are a bit overconfident that Rossi won, but are very much entitled to your opinion. I do not, on the other hand, concur with your "two out of three" logic. The third count included new ballots from other counties, too; without them, Gregoire still would have won. Rossi counties added new ballots, too. It's all a mess.

Above all, though, I apologize for the poor tone of my post. I do not know what was wrong with me; I am not normally like this when discussing things. I have great respect for you as a poster and hold your opinions in high regards. If I made that post and knew at the time it sounded angry, I was not of sound mind. My deepest apologies.

[Schmitz in 1972]

You know what, even if you show me 130 votes I still say that Gregoire should remain governor. To change the result now with Gregoire inaugureated would be a terrible precedent, even if the election was obviously stolen. Ford is right on, Washington has become a third world country: They'd rather be blown up by Osama than be presided over by Bush, they'd rather cheat to have a Democrat governor than allow over 20 years of control over the statehouse to be broken, and there Republicans are worse at knowing when to quit than Al Gore.

[J. J.]

You know what, even if you show me 130 votes I still say that Gregoire should remain governor. To change the result now with Gregoire inaugureated would be a terrible precedent, even if the election was obviously stolen. Ford is right on, Washington has become a third world country: They'd rather be blown up by Osama than be presided over by Bush, they'd rather cheat to have a Democrat governor than allow over 20 years of control over the statehouse to be broken, and there Republicans are worse at knowing when to quit than Al Gore.

The problem is, the precedent already exists in WA.  It has for about 30 years.

[CARLHAYDEN]

JJ,

As I have previously noted, King county did NOT comply with state election regulations.

Thought I'd post one of the pertinent provisions:

WAC 434-253-204 Precinct or poll site ballot reconciliation -- Precinct count optical scan and direct recording devices. Poll site ballots shall be reconciled in the following manner:

(1) Each precinct or poll site ballot counter shall print out results immediately following the closing of the polls. A copy of the results will be posted at the poll site or otherwise made available for public inspection.

(2) The total of votes cast from each counter shall be reconciled with the number of signatures in the poll book(s) prior to transporting to the counting center. The total number of ballots reported on the results printout should equal the number of signatures in the poll book(s). Discrepancies shall be reported and explained by the Inspector.

(3) In a sealed container, the data pack/chip of each ballot counter shall be transported to the counting center with each results printout.

(4) The number of ballots issued should equal the number of ballots counted plus any ballots not counted. Ballots not counted may include, but not be limited to: Provisional ballots, ballots referred to the canvassing board, ballots to be enhanced or duplicated, ballots with write-in votes, any out-sorted ballots, spoiled ballots.

(5) Any discrepancies must be investigated. At a minimum, the following areas must be checked until the discrepancy is resolved:

(a) Check the accuracy of the ballot accountability form.

(b) Recount the signatures in the poll book.

(c) Ballot counter/direct recording device results.

(d) Check the spoiled ballots.

(e) Check the provisional ballots.

(f) Count the ballot stubs.

(g) Check the poll site supplies for ballots.

(h) Manually count the number of ballots.

(i) Call the poll workers.

(6) All steps to reconcile each precinct shall be documented, including any discrepancies that cannot be resolved. Reconciliation of all precincts shall be completed and presented to the county canvassing board before the election may be certified.

[J. J.]

I have not disputed that that the was improper action in King County, but that is not the issue.

It comes down to, can it be shown that there were 129 votes cast by ineligible voters.  That is not a high standard, but it has yet to be met.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

What's with Republicans?
Gore won and conceeded.
Rossi lost and hasn't conceeded.

[The Duke]

Above all, though, I apologize for the poor tone of my post. I do not know what was wrong with me; I am not normally like this when discussing things. I have great respect for you as a poster and hold your opinions in high regards. If I made that post and knew at the time it sounded angry, I was not of sound mind. My deepest apologies.

Its cool.  Yeah, you got to me a little.  I was actually surprised by the tone of that post, because you've always been very respectful and isightful.  We all have a bad day or too, I won't think anything of it.