Libertarians hate Constitution

[A18]

Instant runoff voting bill in U.S. House

On Oct. 8, Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr. [D-Illinois] introduced a bill (H.R. 5293, the Majority Vote Act of 2004) that would require all states to conduct general elections for federal office using an instant runoff voting [IRV] system. If approved as presented, the legislation would require all states to comply by 2008.

http://lp.org/lpnews/0501/irv.html

I take this as an endorsement of clearly unconstitutional legislation, and thereby certify the LP as corrupt.

[A18]

So from now on, Libs can't complain when Reps and Dems violate the Constitution

[John Dibble]

Article 1, Section 4, Clause 1: The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.

I think the above would make it constitutional for the cases of Representatives and Senators. I'm not sure about Presedential races(too tired to dig through the document), but I think it is likely that they are already determined by the federal government.

Still, I would favor approval voting over IRV.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

So we should never change the constitution?
Lets put the slaves are worth 3/5ths of a person part back in!

[John Dibble]

So we should never change the constitution?
Lets put the slaves are worth 3/5ths of a person part back in!

This is not an amendment, it is a bill. This has nothing to do with changing the constitution.


Anywho, bothered to look for the Presedential case.

Article 2, Section 1, Clause 2: Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

So, I suppose if applied to Presidential elections, this is unconstitutional. Still, popular votes go towards electors, which is not a federal office as far as I know, so depending on the wording of the bill a state could argue to the Supreme Court that the bill does not apply to the presidential election(or that the electors would have to do the IRV thing instead of the people).

[J-Mann]

I can't stand the thought of having a runoff system.  I'll leave runoff voting to the French.

I would, however, support federalizing and standardizing national elections so the ballots and voting procedures are the same throughout the country.

[A18]

Oh, I took this as meaning presidential elections. I don't know why.

[J-Mann]

Oh, I took this as meaning presidential elections. I don't know why.

No; rather, it would make every state like Louisiana...so far as I understand it.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

From the constitution

Clause 3: Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. (See Note 2) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

[A18]

I hate the constitution

I don't give a damn. Start some threads about Ohio if you want to post garbage.

[David S]

From the constitution

Clause 3: Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. (See Note 2) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

Slavery was repealled 140 years ago by the 13th amendment, and the clause  you quoted was changed by the 14th amendment so that the newly freed slaves count as whole citizens.

[A18]

Forget that; it was the south that wanted slaves to count as a full person. It was not a debate over "how good" black people are.

[David S]

I take this as an endorsement of clearly unconstitutional legislation, and thereby certify the LP as corrupt.

Smile when you say that cowboy. The LP did not endorse the proposed legislation and only said that they favor proportional representation and instant runoff, things that you have also suggested.

[A18]

Yeah, but it's one of the headlines on their website. That to me basically says "we're for it."

And actually, I am strongly aggainst proportional representation and instant runoff. I favor approval voting or condorcet, personally.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

From the constitution

Clause 3: Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. (See Note 2) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

Slavery was repealled 140 years ago by the 13th amendment, and the clause  you quoted was changed by the 14th amendment so that the newly freed slaves count as whole citizens.

I know, I was arguing against the argument that the constitution should never be changed.

[A18]

From the constitution

Clause 3: Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. (See Note 2) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

Slavery was repealled 140 years ago by the 13th amendment, and the clause  you quoted was changed by the 14th amendment so that the newly freed slaves count as whole citizens.

I know, I was arguing against the argument that the constitution should never be changed.

That argument was not made. This is just a bill.

[WMS]

As an independent, let me say that I'll back just about anything other than the Single District Member Plurality system, whether instant runoff or approval voting. Of course they need to standardize and reform both voting registration and election administration as well...

[ATFFL]

From the constitution

Clause 3: Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. (See Note 2) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

Slavery was repealled 140 years ago by the 13th amendment, and the clause  you quoted was changed by the 14th amendment so that the newly freed slaves count as whole citizens.

I know, I was arguing against the argument that the constitution should never be changed.

You did a damn fine job refuting a position that was never made. 

Sadly, this is the highest quality and most useful posting we have seen from you in quite some time.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Amendment XIV Section 2, might be used in a convoluted way to allow Congress to determine the manner of choosing electors when they are selected by a popular vote.

[A18]

How? All it says:

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.