Discipline

[PBrunsel]

Strongly Aggree

[dazzleman]

This issue has clearly broken down on party lines.  Is there now a Republican style of parenting versus a Democratic style of parenting?

Some of the people who are against discipline are well-meaning, but I think tragically misguided.  Children are not rational creatures who can be treated like miniature adults, and even many adults can't be treated that way.

I suspect that many who oppose discipline for kids will change their minds when they have kids of their own, or get enough life experience to see what kids really need to develop and grow up properly.

[Alcon]

This issue has clearly broken down on party lines.  Is there now a Republican style of parenting versus a Democratic style of parenting?

Some of the people who are against discipline are well-meaning, but I think tragically misguided.  Children are not rational creatures who can be treated like miniature adults, and even many adults can't be treated that way.

I suspect that many who oppose discipline for kids will change their minds when they have kids of their own, or get enough life experience to see what kids really need to develop and grow up properly.

What age of child are we talking about here? Because, if it includes those over 13, I am very offended.

Everyone needs discipline, but the question IS NOT "is discipline important?" but "is discipline the most important thing?"

[dazzleman]

What age of child are we talking about here? Because, if it includes those over 13, I am very offended.

Everyone needs discipline, but the question IS NOT "is discipline important?" but "is discipline the most important thing?"

I think it's fair to say that's it's one of several most important things.  I would not say that discipline alone is the most important thing.  As I mentioned in my first post, I really don't like the wording of the question.

Also, acceptance of discipline is a strange concept.  Kids, even adults, never ACCEPT discipline.  It is forced down their throats.  Did I ACCEPT it when I was grounded, or forced to stay hours after school doing work details?  Hell no, I endured it because I was forced on me, even if I knew deep down that I deserved it (I usually did).  It takes a mature person to really accept discipline.  Even today, the only "discipline" I really accept is a penalty that I don't really care about (like a traffic fine).  Of course, I'm not getting disciplined much these days, but when I do, I still have the same rebellious reaction.

It is only later that people learn to appreciate the discipline they received as kids.

[Alcon]

What age of child are we talking about here? Because, if it includes those over 13, I am very offended.

Everyone needs discipline, but the question IS NOT "is discipline important?" but "is discipline the most important thing?"

I think it's fair to say that's it's one of several most important things.  I would not say that discipline alone is the most important thing.  As I mentioned in my first post, I really don't like the wording of the question.

Also, acceptance of discipline is a strange concept.  Kids, even adults, never ACCEPT discipline.  It is forced down their throats.  Did I ACCEPT it when I was grounded, or forced to stay hours after school doing work details?  Hell no, I endured it because I was forced on me, even if I knew deep down that I deserved it (I usually did).  It takes a mature person to really accept discipline.  Even today, the only "discipline" I really accept is a penalty that I don't really care about (like a traffic fine).  Of course, I'm not getting disciplined much these days, but when I do, I still have the same rebellious reaction.

It is only later that people learn to appreciate the discipline they received as kids.

Wow, that is rather strict.

I can proudly say that I have never been grounded or spanked or any such thing (not that there was not discipline) but turned out...well...nevermind.

[Gabu]

Also, acceptance of discipline is a strange concept.  Kids, even adults, never ACCEPT discipline.  It is forced down their throats.  Did I ACCEPT it when I was grounded, or forced to stay hours after school doing work details?  Hell no, I endured it because I was forced on me, even if I knew deep down that I deserved it (I usually did).  It takes a mature person to really accept discipline.  Even today, the only "discipline" I really accept is a penalty that I don't really care about (like a traffic fine).  Of course, I'm not getting disciplined much these days, but when I do, I still have the same rebellious reaction.

It is only later that people learn to appreciate the discipline they received as kids.

I think this is an excellent observation.  I hated every moment of "correction" my parents gave me, but looking back on it now, I'm very glad they did.

[J. J.]

I think this is an excellent observation.  I hated every moment of "correction" my parents gave me, but looking back on it now, I'm very glad they did.

I, on the other hand, learned that much of what my parents told me was a load of bull**** and have now generally rejected it.  I frankly wish I had stopped listening to them a lot earlier.

[WMS]

Whip 'em. Whip 'em good. Whip them like they've never...err, agree, right?


;-P


(I'm surprised no one had made a Devo joke yet... )

[Gabu]

I think this is an excellent observation.  I hated every moment of "correction" my parents gave me, but looking back on it now, I'm very glad they did.

I, on the other hand, learned that much of what my parents told me was a load of bull**** and have now generally rejected it.  I frankly wish I had stopped listening to them a lot earlier.

Well, yes.  For discipline to do anything, it requires the child to consciously think about it.  In away, the line "Now, I want you to sit there and think about what you did!", comical as it sounds, is the only way anyone has ever reformed their modus operandi.  Punishment alone will do nothing.

[Nym90]

This issue has clearly broken down on party lines.  Is there now a Republican style of parenting versus a Democratic style of parenting?

Some of the people who are against discipline are well-meaning, but I think tragically misguided.  Children are not rational creatures who can be treated like miniature adults, and even many adults can't be treated that way.

I suspect that many who oppose discipline for kids will change their minds when they have kids of their own, or get enough life experience to see what kids really need to develop and grow up properly.

What age of child are we talking about here? Because, if it includes those over 13, I am very offended.

Everyone needs discipline, but the question IS NOT "is discipline important?" but "is discipline the most important thing?"

Exactly. Those answering "disagree" are not saying that they oppose discipline at all.

[J. J.]

This issue has clearly broken down on party lines.  Is there now a Republican style of parenting versus a Democratic style of parenting?

Some of the people who are against discipline are well-meaning, but I think tragically misguided.  Children are not rational creatures who can be treated like miniature adults, and even many adults can't be treated that way.

I suspect that many who oppose discipline for kids will change their minds when they have kids of their own, or get enough life experience to see what kids really need to develop and grow up properly.

What age of child are we talking about here? Because, if it includes those over 13, I am very offended.

Everyone needs discipline, but the question IS NOT "is discipline important?" but "is discipline the most important thing?"

Exactly. Those answering "disagree" are not saying that they oppose discipline at all.

Nearly everyone; please don't include me.  I think discipline is important, but not the most important thing.  I have seen too many times who "doing what you're told" by an authority figure creates too many problems.

[dazzleman]

Nearly everyone; please don't include me.  I think discipline is important, but not the most important thing.  I have seen too many times who "doing what you're told" by an authority figure creates too many problems.

It's definitely a balance.  I would never advocate that a kid should unquestioningly obey every authority figure.  I think it's very good for all people to question authority and think about WHY they should do things, rather than simply obey.  But you have to pick the time and place, and do it with respect, if appropriate.

[??????????]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

[J. J.]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

I would suggest you remember that the child will one day probably have to take care of you in your old age.

[??????????]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

I would suggest you remember that the child will one day probably have to take care of you in your old age.

Good. And she will still respect me and even more so for teaching her the right way to live.

[J. J.]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

I would suggest you remember that the child will one day probably have to take care of you in your old age.

Good. And she will still respect me and even more so for teaching her the right way to live.

What goes around comes around.  :-)

[opebo]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

I would suggest you remember that the child will one day probably have to take care of you in your old age.

Good. And she will still respect me and even more so for teaching her the right way to live.

Hah, the right way to live - kowtowing to the Boss.  I think the point was that when you're old and feeble she'll have the opportunity for abuse as well!

[dazzleman]

Discipline administered properly is not abuse.  Failure to discipline when needed is a worse abuse.

[??????????]

Discipline administered properly is not abuse.  Failure to discipline when needed is a worse abuse.

Amen brother.

[Jake]

I voted agree, though I don't really like the way the question is worded.

I think the right type of discipline is very important when raising kids, but there are other things that are equally important, like opening doors to positive thinking for kids.

Discipline doesn't mean punishment; it means teaching.  It may sometimes include punishment, but there must also be a positive aspect to it.

Parents who love their kids will discipline them because if they don't, somebody else, like a judge or police officer, will, and it will be a lot worse.  In order to be successful as adults, kids need to internalize the lessons they were taught through discipline, and discipline themselves increasingly as they get older.  Those without discipline always fail in life.

Personally, I have a conflicted attitude toward discipline.  I hated to be disciplined as a kid, especially when it was strongly skewed toward the negative without positive reinforcement, as it sometimes was.  I rebelled terribly against discipline as a teenager.

I enjoyed (and still enjoy to some extent) breaking rules, and as I got older, I found I didn't mind discipline as much.  Rather that fighting it directly, I took a passive-aggressive approach of outwardly accepting my punishment without a fight, but inwardly vowing not to change my behavior because of it.  It became a challenge to do something wrong, endure the punishment, and then do it again, only being just a little more careful not to get caught.  I also discovered that discipline from disinterested parties, like the adminstration at school, was preferable to a nasty confrontation with my parents, so I was careful to keep the level of trouble I got into at school below the threshold at which they would call home.

With discipline, like many other things, it's not so much what you do, but how you do it.  An affirmative discipline that is done with love and some positive reinforcement, is very important for kids to develop into productive adults.

Dazzleman is the most intelligent person on earth, and coolest BTW.  He has hit upon the key to happiness. Breaking rules.  I used to be afraid of getting in trouble at school, but now I take his approach to it.  Break the rules, because if you don't do something bad enough they can'treally punish you bad, and if they do send something home, forged signatures work great.  All hail Dazzleman

[dazzleman]

I voted agree, though I don't really like the way the question is worded.

I think the right type of discipline is very important when raising kids, but there are other things that are equally important, like opening doors to positive thinking for kids.

Discipline doesn't mean punishment; it means teaching.  It may sometimes include punishment, but there must also be a positive aspect to it.

Parents who love their kids will discipline them because if they don't, somebody else, like a judge or police officer, will, and it will be a lot worse.  In order to be successful as adults, kids need to internalize the lessons they were taught through discipline, and discipline themselves increasingly as they get older.  Those without discipline always fail in life.

Personally, I have a conflicted attitude toward discipline.  I hated to be disciplined as a kid, especially when it was strongly skewed toward the negative without positive reinforcement, as it sometimes was.  I rebelled terribly against discipline as a teenager.

I enjoyed (and still enjoy to some extent) breaking rules, and as I got older, I found I didn't mind discipline as much.  Rather that fighting it directly, I took a passive-aggressive approach of outwardly accepting my punishment without a fight, but inwardly vowing not to change my behavior because of it.  It became a challenge to do something wrong, endure the punishment, and then do it again, only being just a little more careful not to get caught.  I also discovered that discipline from disinterested parties, like the adminstration at school, was preferable to a nasty confrontation with my parents, so I was careful to keep the level of trouble I got into at school below the threshold at which they would call home.

With discipline, like many other things, it's not so much what you do, but how you do it.  An affirmative discipline that is done with love and some positive reinforcement, is very important for kids to develop into productive adults.

Dazzleman is the most intelligent person on earth, and coolest BTW.  He has hit upon the key to happiness. Breaking rules.  I used to be afraid of getting in trouble at school, but now I take his approach to it.  Break the rules, because if you don't do something bad enough they can'treally punish you bad, and if they do send something home, forged signatures work great.  All hail Dazzleman

Thanks for the compliments man.  I do in principle believe that a lot of good can come from breaking rules, provided that the energy behind it gets channeled in positive, and not negative, directions.  If you really think about it, most human progress has come from breaking rules, and doing things that we weren't meant to do.  Airplane flying is one example, but there are many others.  Remember the saying "if man were meant to fly, he would have wings."  The world is a much better place because many people chose to break rules and test barriers in a positive way. 

Discipline of kids should seek to channel their desire to question and challenge the world around them in a positive direction.  Failure to discipline often means that kids will channel that natural propensity to push boundaries in a negative direction.  I've talked about the need for discipline, but the flip side is that I hate to see a kid who is afraid to test boundaries, break rules, and get into some trouble.  It's a necessary part of growing up.

As far as school went, once I got smart, and got beyond the sullen and angry reaction to discipline, I developed a "punishment threshold" and as long as the punishment fell below that, I did what I wanted and didn't worry to much about the consequences.  If I got caught, I took the punishment without anger and moved on.  I still have that approach, pretty much. 

I firmly believe that in certain cases, rules were meant to be broken, and if you can have fun doing it, all the better.  Don't get the wrong idea though - I'm basically a law-abiding guy.  I wouldn't even throw a piece of litter on the ground.  But I am a chronic speeder - that has been my biggest, and basically only, source of trouble from law enforcement.  All kidding aside, there have been times in my professional life when I have been obligated to break rules, and been rewarded for it because it had a positive effect.

It's generally smart, before you do something, to know the potential consequences and be cool with them.  People who do things and then whine about the consequences when they get caught drive me crazy.

And BTW, I did the forged signature thing more than once in my school days.  Good day, dude.

[European]

strongly disagree.

I think that it depends on what kind of disipline it is. i don't agree with hitting a child in any circumstance. I believe that it teaches the child that you can get what you want through violence.

but that's a side issue.

I think that the best things you can teach a child is to question everything, respect others in all things and not just those who agree with you, be helpful.

After that the adult that the child becomes can decide what he/she wants to do,

[Hitchabrut]

Strongly agree. You need to see the consequences of a discipline-free environment in order to agree.

[??????????]

Strongly agree. You need to see the consequences of a discipline-free environment in order to agree.

Amen to that!

[KentonNgo]

No. The most important thing people learn is how to think for themselves.

People under authoritarian regimes march in their military parades. You have to admit those parades were pretty disciplined.

The only way to sustain a free-thinking people is to teach them not to toe anyone's lines.