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| | |-+  Manuel Fraga Iribarne, founding member of PP and franquist minister, is dead
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Author Topic: Manuel Fraga Iribarne, founding member of PP and franquist minister, is dead  (Read 984 times)
Niemeyerite
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« on: January 15, 2012, 06:15:56 pm »
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At the age of 2103209439059034659569054389054309538054 years:

The media wants us to think he was only 89 years. Hahaha...

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2012/01/09/actualidad/1326071259_436194.html
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2012, 06:54:24 pm »
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RIP Manuel Fraga Iribarne.
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2012, 01:10:11 pm »
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We are not supposed to speak badly of the newly dead, and there is nothing appropriate that could be said that wouldn't violate that rule.
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2012, 03:06:23 pm »
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RIP, an interesting guy. It will be interesting to see how history will judge him in 15-20 years. I'm kind of legitimately 'saddened' (though it isn't the right term, I'm not crying a river, but it's a bit sad) by his death, given that his conversion to democracy played a pretty big role in ensuring a democratic transition and by the admittedly low standards of the Franco cohort, he was one of the good guys. Certainly his political ideas were horrible and he did horrible things too, but I wouldn't say 'good riddance'.
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Niemeyerite
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2012, 03:57:07 pm »
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Manuel Fraga was one of the most moderate members of the new PP... And that says all about PP. Fraga, who was a franquist minister, who was born before Jesus Christ, is more progressive than the majority of the members of the party he founded.
However, he was a criminal. He even said "the street's mine". He was a "great democrat" from the moment Franco died. Because, before, he wanted to kill every democrat in Spain...
He died just one week after an argentinian judge ordered to investigate him =(

Look, he was the eldest looking person in the World:



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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2012, 06:57:30 am »
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So, Julio, now you are living in a fascist regime? :-D Poor Julio, when the Resistance will start? :-)
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Niemeyerite
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2012, 08:29:40 am »
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So, Julio, now you are living in a fascist regime? :-D Poor Julio, when the Resistance will start? :-)

Well, it would be fascist if the people didn't have the power to stop PP's decisions. Here in Madrid, I think we have a pretty fascist President: Esperanza Aguirre. Not to talk about my mayor...
But no, Rajoy isn't a fascist. But there are many ministers who would like to come back to Franco's dictatorship, yes. And who were praying for Tejero to claim vicory on the 23-F, I'm sure of that Wink

And the resistance has already started... 15-M, massiva demonstrations for the public education and public healthcare system, for the public water in Madrid, against corruptio, etc etc
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E: -6.06 -> -6.97 -> -6.97 -> -8.13 -> -7.29 -> -8.26 -> -8.65 -> -7.03
S: -6.78 -> -6.09 -> -7.30 -> -7.13 -> -8.09 -> -8.35 -> -9.04 -> -8.61
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2012, 12:00:20 pm »
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So, Julio, now you are living in a fascist regime? :-D Poor Julio, when the Resistance will start? :-)

Well, it would be fascist if the people didn't have the power to stop PP's decisions. Here in Madrid, I think we have a pretty fascist President: Esperanza Aguirre. Not to talk about my mayor...
But no, Rajoy isn't a fascist. But there are many ministers who would like to come back to Franco's dictatorship, yes. And who were praying for Tejero to claim vicory on the 23-F, I'm sure of that Wink

And the resistance has already started... 15-M, massiva demonstrations for the public education and public healthcare system, for the public water in Madrid, against corruptio, etc etc

Wow! I wish every country maybe in LAtin America or Africa or Asia to have suche "fasist" ministers. You can have your ideas about the "secret wishes" about dictatorship, Tejero, etc, of ministers, but I think they are more or less a wishful thinking of yours, like the ones of who said that Zapatero was a communist and an anti-christ :-D
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Niemeyerite
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2012, 02:08:20 pm »
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So, Julio, now you are living in a fascist regime? :-D Poor Julio, when the Resistance will start? :-)

Well, it would be fascist if the people didn't have the power to stop PP's decisions. Here in Madrid, I think we have a pretty fascist President: Esperanza Aguirre. Not to talk about my mayor...
But no, Rajoy isn't a fascist. But there are many ministers who would like to come back to Franco's dictatorship, yes. And who were praying for Tejero to claim vicory on the 23-F, I'm sure of that Wink

And the resistance has already started... 15-M, massiva demonstrations for the public education and public healthcare system, for the public water in Madrid, against corruptio, etc etc

Wow! I wish every country maybe in LAtin America or Africa or Asia to have suche "fasist" ministers. You can have your ideas about the "secret wishes" about dictatorship, Tejero, etc, of ministers, but I think they are more or less a wishful thinking of yours, like the ones of who said that Zapatero was a communist and an anti-christ :-D

There's a difference. Zapatero was never linked to anti-christ. In Germany, and in your country, Italy, nazis and fascists have founded minor parties... And in Germany, every person linked to Hitler's dictatorship can't take part in elections (IIRC).

Here in Spain, a franquist leader (Manuel Fraga, by the way) CREATED THE BIGGEST PARTY IN SPAIN NOWADAYS. That's the difference, my friend Wink Spanish conservative politicians tend to love Franco and justify 23-F. If you can understand Spanish, you'd better read this to understand how things work here:

http://www.elplural.com/2012/01/17/fraga-pertenecio-a-gobiernos-que-firmaron-sentencias-de-muerte/
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E: -6.06 -> -6.97 -> -6.97 -> -8.13 -> -7.29 -> -8.26 -> -8.65 -> -7.03
S: -6.78 -> -6.09 -> -7.30 -> -7.13 -> -8.09 -> -8.35 -> -9.04 -> -8.61
ag
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 05:18:54 pm »
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We are not supposed to speak badly of the newly dead, and there is nothing appropriate that could be said that wouldn't violate that rule.


Actually, there is. He brought the Spanish right into the democracy. It is still a deeply flawed right, but it does operate within the limits and rules of the Constitution, at the creation of which Fraga himself attended. Whatever else he did in his life - and most of it, indeed, is probably not appropriate to be  mentioned on this day - this is something, for which one may not merely respect him, but even express a token of gratitude.
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2012, 05:35:55 pm »
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Calling the Spanish right "fascist" isn't much of a stretch.
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The idea of parodying the preceding Atlasian's postings is laughable, of course, but not for reasons one might expect.
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2012, 05:55:39 pm »
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Calling the Spanish right "fascist" isn't much of a stretch.

Is it even offensive to most of its supporters? I'd think for many it's almost self-identification Smiley)
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2012, 10:31:57 am »
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So, Julio, now you are living in a fascist regime? :-D Poor Julio, when the Resistance will start? :-)

Well, it would be fascist if the people didn't have the power to stop PP's decisions. Here in Madrid, I think we have a pretty fascist President: Esperanza Aguirre. Not to talk about my mayor...
But no, Rajoy isn't a fascist. But there are many ministers who would like to come back to Franco's dictatorship, yes. And who were praying for Tejero to claim vicory on the 23-F, I'm sure of that Wink

And the resistance has already started... 15-M, massiva demonstrations for the public education and public healthcare system, for the public water in Madrid, against corruptio, etc etc

Wow! I wish every country maybe in LAtin America or Africa or Asia to have suche "fasist" ministers. You can have your ideas about the "secret wishes" about dictatorship, Tejero, etc, of ministers, but I think they are more or less a wishful thinking of yours, like the ones of who said that Zapatero was a communist and an anti-christ :-D

There's a difference. Zapatero was never linked to anti-christ. In Germany, and in your country, Italy, nazis and fascists have founded minor parties... And in Germany, every person linked to Hitler's dictatorship can't take part in elections (IIRC).

Here in Spain, a franquist leader (Manuel Fraga, by the way) CREATED THE BIGGEST PARTY IN SPAIN NOWADAYS. That's the difference, my friend Wink Spanish conservative politicians tend to love Franco and justify 23-F. If you can understand Spanish, you'd better read this to understand how things work here:

http://www.elplural.com/2012/01/17/fraga-pertenecio-a-gobiernos-que-firmaron-sentencias-de-muerte/

I don't think they justify 23-F at all. But we have to consider that dictatorship in Spain finished softly (fortunately), and with a soft transistion. And there were common people who were not fiercely against Franco, and without traumatic events they didn't change their mind even if agreeing on a natural transition to democracy. Many people, moreover, started their career with francoism because they were young under francoism, simple! Think about ex-communist countries! Almost all present politician started in local communist parties, even though they have never been really marxist!
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Niemeyerite
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« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2012, 05:24:25 pm »
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So, Julio, now you are living in a fascist regime? :-D Poor Julio, when the Resistance will start? :-)

Well, it would be fascist if the people didn't have the power to stop PP's decisions. Here in Madrid, I think we have a pretty fascist President: Esperanza Aguirre. Not to talk about my mayor...
But no, Rajoy isn't a fascist. But there are many ministers who would like to come back to Franco's dictatorship, yes. And who were praying for Tejero to claim vicory on the 23-F, I'm sure of that Wink

And the resistance has already started... 15-M, massiva demonstrations for the public education and public healthcare system, for the public water in Madrid, against corruptio, etc etc

Wow! I wish every country maybe in LAtin America or Africa or Asia to have suche "fasist" ministers. You can have your ideas about the "secret wishes" about dictatorship, Tejero, etc, of ministers, but I think they are more or less a wishful thinking of yours, like the ones of who said that Zapatero was a communist and an anti-christ :-D

There's a difference. Zapatero was never linked to anti-christ. In Germany, and in your country, Italy, nazis and fascists have founded minor parties... And in Germany, every person linked to Hitler's dictatorship can't take part in elections (IIRC).

Here in Spain, a franquist leader (Manuel Fraga, by the way) CREATED THE BIGGEST PARTY IN SPAIN NOWADAYS. That's the difference, my friend Wink Spanish conservative politicians tend to love Franco and justify 23-F. If you can understand Spanish, you'd better read this to understand how things work here:

http://www.elplural.com/2012/01/17/fraga-pertenecio-a-gobiernos-que-firmaron-sentencias-de-muerte/

I don't think they justify 23-F at all. But we have to consider that dictatorship in Spain finished softly (fortunately), and with a soft transistion. And there were common people who were not fiercely against Franco, and without traumatic events they didn't change their mind even if agreeing on a natural transition to democracy. Many people, moreover, started their career with francoism because they were young under francoism, simple! Think about ex-communist countries! Almost all present politician started in local communist parties, even though they have never been really marxist!

But this is different. Hey, I have many friends who vote PP. and even some who are members of the Partido Popular... And they justify 23-F (and say Tejero would have been far better than Felipe Gonzalez). And I'm sure they hated me before they knew me. There's a lot of anger in Spain. many PP members are to the right of LePen and the Progressive Party of Norway, you can be sure of that...

 And they're not a small minority in the party. Many of them still live in Franquist dictatorship and want socialist/communist to be dead. Last year, I campaigned for PSOE 2 times. And people, obviously people who vote PP, in the street called me what you can't even imagine (socialist of sh**t, son of the demon, one told me he'd laugh if a car smashed me, the other said he hoped my granpa had been killed in the war...). Obviously, that people don't represent PP, but there are many in the party, like Mayor Oreja and Aguirre, who I'm sure think the same.


Oh, and young people from Nuevas Generaciones are really insane (look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=671zLGFsOrY ).

Let's talk about my city, Sanse!
My friend, Alberto, is "concejal" (I don't know the name in Engish) and Lt. Mayor in my town, and formerly he was the secretary of nuevas generaciones in Sanse (where I live). He told me it was full of crazy people (don't tell that to anyone, it was a secret haha) and that he's tired of old people in the party making racist/Kill socialist commentaries hahaha... Alberto is a great person, and a good politician, too. But he has to work with neo-fascists "concejales" like Lucia, Txematre and even the mayor haha...



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My evolution (by The Political Matrix):
E: -6.06 -> -6.97 -> -6.97 -> -8.13 -> -7.29 -> -8.26 -> -8.65 -> -7.03
S: -6.78 -> -6.09 -> -7.30 -> -7.13 -> -8.09 -> -8.35 -> -9.04 -> -8.61
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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2012, 07:01:02 pm »
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TBF though, party youth wings everywhere (especially in left or right-wing parties, less so in centrist parties) are full of crazies and hotheads. The MJS in France is pretty radically and militantly left-wing, while the Jeunes Pops are pretty insane young bourgeois who are probably very much racist and would panic if faced with a brown guy.

I haven't met any official Young Purgatories here, so I can't judge, but the YLC are pretty moderate but that's because we're boring centrists who attract fairly moderate and normal people.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2012, 05:37:09 am »
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I haven't met any official Young Purgatories here, so I can't judge, but the YLC are pretty moderate but that's because we're boring centrists who attract fairly moderate and normal people mostly careerists.

Sorry, couldn't resist Wink
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