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| | |-+  Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
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Question: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?
Yes   -34 (59.6%)
No   -23 (40.4%)
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Total Voters: 57

Author Topic: Should the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?  (Read 3072 times)
Insula Dei
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2012, 07:13:16 am »
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Is this really something you'd do every morning in an American High School?
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dead0man
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2012, 07:37:23 am »
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I'm pretty sure we stopped in Middle School (6-8 grades) and didn't do it in High School...or only did it once a week or something, I don't really remember.  I know we did it in MS, it seems like we did it in HS, but I just can't remember ever doing it.

I just asked my HS aged kid and no, they do not do it in her HS (she kind of laughed at the idea), but they did do it in MS.
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АverroŽs Nix
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 08:41:17 am »
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What is strange is that in the eyes of many leftists- none that have spoken here- the pledge is a more important issue to fight then radical Islam

Does your defense of the Pledge go beyond asserting that it's not as bad as radical Islam?
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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 09:09:58 am »
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I think it is interesting how many of you think the Pledge is some fascist, nationalist piece... why dont you direct your outrage to the atrocities commited daily by the thugs in the Middle East who hate Christians, women, gays, Jews, etc

I am going to stop writing in posts like these because it makes me feel sick to think how much outrage you all have towards this country compared to true evil in other nations... thank God people like you weren't in charge during our world wars or when we were fighting for independence. Every one here always says how Reagan could not make it in a GOP primary nowadays- I agree! But when things like the Pledge which are mainstream are being attacked by the left, it shows which extremism is more pervasive

Let me ask one question:

What is the point of pledging allegiance to a supposedly "free" country?

Please answer that without any overblown comparison to Nazi Germany, Radical Islam, Stalinist Russia, or Trial Lawyers.
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President John Hay
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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 09:34:17 am »
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To the 2 prior posters- maintaining an American identity is very important...we are free because we are strong, we are not anarchists. I do not believe that someone who opposes a war is unpatriotic- I hated what happened to Max Cleland a while aback, but that is because you can be loyal to our nation while opposing policies...I dont see what is wrong about publicly declaring your allegiance to your nation

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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2012, 09:51:46 am »
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Is this really something you'd do every morning in an American High School?

we had it every day of every year starting with Kindergarten.  "give us the child for eight years and he will be a Bolshevik forever" - Lenin.  they heeded his advice.


and clarence, one easy answer here is that we are in a position to influence the US government, and insofar as we are in a position to influence it we are responsible for what it ultimately does (what crimes it ultimately commits, if we are to be more dramatic).  meanwhile I can't do much of anything to direct what North Korea or the Somalian Islamic militia or whatever other official enemies are going to do.
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« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2012, 10:02:49 am »
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I understand that point Tweed- but I sometimes cant stand the outrage some people have to nationalism.. I am PROUD to be in this nation where people are free and where minoritires or gays are not killed for who they are, and I am proud to say so every day!
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« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2012, 11:26:12 am »
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I understand that point Tweed- but I sometimes cant stand the outrage some people have to nationalism.. I am PROUD to be in this nation where people are free and where minoritires or gays are not killed for who they are, and I am proud to say so every day!

You understand there are other free countries (some likely with a higher level of freedom) than the United States?
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2012, 12:03:29 pm »
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I think it is interesting how many of you think the Pledge is some fascist, nationalist piece... why dont you direct your outrage to the atrocities commited daily by the thugs in the Middle East who hate Christians, women, gays, Jews, etc

I am going to stop writing in posts like these because it makes me feel sick to think how much outrage you all have towards this country compared to true evil in other nations... thank God people like you weren't in charge during our world wars or when we were fighting for independence. Every one here always says how Reagan could not make it in a GOP primary nowadays- I agree! But when things like the Pledge which are mainstream are being attacked by the left, it shows which extremism is more pervasive

Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

No-one thinks the Pledge is "fascist". We just think its outdated and pointless.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2012, 01:02:32 pm »
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I didn't say the pledge for most of high school. Some classes I stood silently, others I sat. I said it on the anniversary of 9/11 though, in full. Most other times I said it I quietly omitted the "under God" part.
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« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2012, 05:48:42 pm »
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I understand that point Tweed- but I sometimes cant stand the outrage some people have to nationalism.. I am PROUD to be in this nation where people are free and where minoritires or gays are not killed for who they are, and I am proud to say so every day!

You understand there are other free countries (some likely with a higher level of freedom) than the United States?

Most of these countries would not exist today if my father's generation hadn't saved them! Say all you want about how America is the policeman of the world... I agree there are problems with that... but we have spread or salvaged more freedom then any other nation
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« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2012, 08:11:50 pm »
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While it is true the US has played a big role in securing freedom in the Western world, you can't use that as a free pass to avoid any criticism today. The fact is there are many countries with equal or greater freedom.

And it's not as if America's foreign policy has only been around to spread freedom...let's not pretend otherwise.

Yeah, the US tends to be one of the good guys...but I do get annoyed by the arrogance expressed by many (like in your last post).
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« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2012, 01:28:11 am »
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No. It wouldn't accomplish anything because it's not mandatory in the first place. Abolishing it altogether would just serve as a meaningless gesture that would serve no purpose but to satisfy a group of people searching not for pragmatism, but for quixotic, anti-traditional-at-all-costs backlash against the establishment.

Yeah man, because only stupid kids who want to fight the establishment would support something you disagree with.
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« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2012, 02:33:34 am »
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Is this really something you'd do every morning in an American High School?

Not at mine. Or my middle school.
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President John Hay
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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2012, 03:05:43 am »
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While it is true the US has played a big role in securing freedom in the Western world, you can't use that as a free pass to avoid any criticism today. The fact is there are many countries with equal or greater freedom.

And it's not as if America's foreign policy has only been around to spread freedom...let's not pretend otherwise.

Yeah, the US tends to be one of the good guys...but I do get annoyed by the arrogance expressed by many (like in your last post).

Franzl I am glad to see you type that the USis "one of the good guys" but what annoyes me is the opposite of what annoys you... people who seek to point out every flaw they see in America and that they see nationalism as a flaw- you are not one of those I dont believe, but there a re many who do. I believe in pride in ones nation... it does not bother me if a Brit thinks the UK is best but what bothers me is an American who says we are not exceptional
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« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2012, 03:47:02 am »
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I basically take the same position as Jehovah's Witnesses on issues like this. I won't ever say the pledge. It was said both times at the Senate district conventions I went to, I just remained seated. No one cared.

If I'm at an event with the national anthem I'll stand but won't salute the flag in any way either.
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President John Hay
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« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2012, 04:02:02 am »
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I basically take the same position as Jehovah's Witnesses on issues like this. I won't ever say the pledge. It was said both times at the Senate district conventions I went to, I just remained seated. No one cared.

If I'm at an event with the national anthem I'll stand but won't salute the flag in any way either.

Many people stand in silence rather then sit... to me I dont care unless he person is disruptive during. It is your right to not participate in peace
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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2012, 12:06:03 pm »
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I believe in pride in ones nation... it does not bother me if a Brit thinks the UK is best but what bothers me is an American who says we are not exceptional

So what is someone (like me) who holds two citizenships to believe in that regard? Wink
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« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2012, 12:00:35 am »
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While it is true the US has played a big role in securing freedom in the Western world, you can't use that as a free pass to avoid any criticism today. The fact is there are many countries with equal or greater freedom.

And it's not as if America's foreign policy has only been around to spread freedom...let's not pretend otherwise.

Yeah, the US tends to be one of the good guys...but I do get annoyed by the arrogance expressed by many (like in your last post).

Franzl I am glad to see you type that the USis "one of the good guys" but what annoyes me is the opposite of what annoys you... people who seek to point out every flaw they see in America and that they see nationalism as a flaw- you are not one of those I dont believe, but there a re many who do. I believe in pride in ones nation... it does not bother me if a Brit thinks the UK is best but what bothers me is an American who says we are not exceptional

America certainly isn't exceptional.
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« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2012, 07:40:46 pm »
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OK, let's not get into a fight about whether America is a free country or not. It's had some good times and some bad times. On the whole, it's a nice place; I think we can all agree on that.

Now: should the Pledge of Allegiance be abolished?

The words "under God", yes, but not the rest. And don't they sing the national anthem at school in Canada, or are my Canadian friends lying to me?
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« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2012, 11:24:48 pm »
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Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.

They are not mandated.  They need not recite the pledge.
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« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2012, 06:28:46 am »
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Mandating kids to "pledge their allegiance" to the country daily at school is nothing but mindless propaganda.

They are not mandated.  They need not recite the pledge.

My school Ringgold used to mandate standing for it. I recall a few students getting in trouble for not standing. I would stand simply because it was a good time to stretch out of those tiny ass desks. I never recited it because there was never a need. I don't think I should have to pledge my allegiance to this country. Why do they need a pledge to prove that I wouldn't betray the United States? A few of my peers didn't want to stand and got in trouble for it.

That practice should be abolished.
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« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2012, 06:44:22 am »
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I don't understand...you yourself just said you never said it....why does it need to be abolished again?
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« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2012, 05:40:04 pm »
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It should be taken just once, at 18, with the "under God" part deleted. Having schoolchildren do it every morning is just ridiculous.
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lawlz
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« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2012, 06:09:54 pm »
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The pledge is excessively nationalist and theist. While students are afforded the opportunity to opt out, doing so in practice is easier said than done for a student because their peers are oftentimes monstrous little conformists who may decide to associate non-compliance with the ritual with one being different (e.g. un-American) and thus either inferior (all of the good kids are unwavering patriots!) or an out-group threat (a traitor!). Some folks have even proposed that bullying in school is a coercive form of self-enforcement that young people engage in to uphold cultural norms.

I do not know whether they are correct in saying so, incidentally, but I still worry that the pledge promotes unconditional loyalty to the state while tacitly discouraging the free exercise of ones rights. It is somewhat contradictory to the values the nation is alleged to stand for, and that's before one even brings up the point that the United States should symbolically represent what its living citizens - not folks who died a long time ago - want it to. This is not an important issue to me but I would be pleased if the pledge were to fall into disuse. In my opinion, it is enough (and not something I'd mandate) to run the national flag up a pole outdoors on the school grounds.
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"I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to see realized." ~ Nelson Mandela
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