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Author Topic: Kal's Amendment [Rejected]  (Read 1437 times)
Marokai Besieged
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« on: January 20, 2012, 09:15:19 pm »
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Kal's Amendment

1. The Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be elected separately from the President.
2. Election to the Vice Presidency shall take place at the same time and under the same rules as election to the Presidency
3. This amendment shall not affect in any way other already existing constitutional frames of the Vice Presidency

(PPT discretion slot.)


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« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 07:48:44 am by Mad Marokai, PPT »Logged

tmthforu94
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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2012, 09:16:07 pm »
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I think this bold plan deserves some serious consideration.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2012, 09:17:19 pm »
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I wholeheartedly support this idea.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2012, 09:22:12 pm »
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I think, in an effort to try and kill two birds with one stone, we should also consider possible ways to bring more relevance to the VP position. It's been thrown out before to make them assume duties of PPT (Sorry Marokai Wink). Not saying I endorse that, just bringing it up.
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« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2012, 09:23:34 pm »
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I think, in an effort to try and kill two birds with one stone, we should also consider possible ways to bring more relevance to the VP position. It's been thrown out before to make them assume duties of PPT (Sorry Marokai Wink). Not saying I endorse that, just bringing it up.

We could just make the VP a senator.
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R2D2
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« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2012, 09:42:56 pm »
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Fantastic idea.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2012, 09:44:46 pm »
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I think, in an effort to try and kill two birds with one stone, we should also consider possible ways to bring more relevance to the VP position. It's been thrown out before to make them assume duties of PPT (Sorry Marokai Wink). Not saying I endorse that, just bringing it up.

We could just make the VP a senator.
Not bad. And if there was still a tie, however they voted would determine the outcome.
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« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2012, 09:45:26 pm »
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I think, in an effort to try and kill two birds with one stone, we should also consider possible ways to bring more relevance to the VP position. It's been thrown out before to make them assume duties of PPT (Sorry Marokai Wink). Not saying I endorse that, just bringing it up.

We could just make the VP a senator.

I've been beating this drum for over a year and ahalf, but apparently it's still too crazy of an idea for some. It's sitting in the que, though! Tongue
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2012, 09:52:35 pm »
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I think, in an effort to try and kill two birds with one stone, we should also consider possible ways to bring more relevance to the VP position. It's been thrown out before to make them assume duties of PPT (Sorry Marokai Wink). Not saying I endorse that, just bringing it up.

We could just make the VP a senator.

I've been beating this drum for over a year and ahalf, but apparently it's still too crazy of an idea for some. It's sitting in the que, though! Tongue

Wait, this is your idea? I was hoping it would be TJ's.

Forget it then, Marokai is not capable of coming up with a good idea. Next.
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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2012, 09:53:20 pm »
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NO, NOT AGAIN!!

Tongue
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2012, 12:37:59 am »
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still seems pointless and unnecessary
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2012, 06:26:27 pm »
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"constitutional frames"?
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2012, 11:45:18 pm »
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The VP already has all the powers of the PPT and more at his disposal. They have all simply chose to let the PPT take the reigns of the Senate. This is entirely up to the VP and BK or any Veep could decide to do it all himself with the PPT becoming a mere stand-in.
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2012, 10:56:36 pm »
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still seems pointless and unnecessary

Well I would say that if we stay as only two big tent parties for the rest of time, yeah I might agree with you.  But, if they dissolve and we end up with anywhere from 4 to 6 parties, you will see blending, unity tickets, etc.  This would help make the VP a very careful choice.  Plus, I really like the idea of possibly a Pres and VP from different tickets.  In the last election, it could easily have happened.

I liked Kal's (and maybe originally Marokai's but I really remember Kal firing me up about the idea) and promised that I would bring it forward.  It is a reform that takes little and has plenty of fun opportunities in the future.  So please support it.
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2012, 11:32:01 pm »
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still seems pointless and unnecessary

Right you are.
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« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2012, 11:44:27 pm »
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still seems pointless and unnecessary

I really like the idea of possibly a Pres and VP from different tickets.  In the last election, it could easily have happened.

I liked Kal's (and maybe originally Marokai's but I really remember Kal firing me up about the idea) and promised that I would bring it forward.  

Right you are. Most "reforms" from Marokai's side are targeted at the JCP, trying to disable or handicap us by any means. It is why my attempts at giving the VP a stronger role are always met with opposition while meaningless changes to the position are pitched as reforms.

This amendment does not improve the VP position. All it does is change election rules because one political apparatus thinks it will be a beneficial rule change. Your assertion that we might have had a Duke/Bacon King administration is also what I'd have expected had the right gotten an opportunity to change our electoral rulebook prior to the October election.

Ticket cohesion is a net positive for the executive branch. Removing this, therefore, is a net negative. If we want to adjust the executive branch to make improvements to game play, let's try filling the Ag vacancy with the Veep or something.

But let us not masquerade here. This is not a "reform" in the sense the public would expect. It's a desperate effort to strengthen the chances of one political group. More so than the voter ID laws Marokai is always bitching about are.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 12:19:37 am by No Good Napoleon »Logged

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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2012, 04:20:33 am »
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still seems pointless and unnecessary

I really like the idea of possibly a Pres and VP from different tickets.  In the last election, it could easily have happened.

I liked Kal's (and maybe originally Marokai's but I really remember Kal firing me up about the idea) and promised that I would bring it forward.  

Right you are. Most "reforms" from Marokai's side are targeted at the JCP, trying to disable or handicap us by any means. It is why my attempts at giving the VP a stronger role are always met with opposition while meaningless changes to the position are pitched as reforms.

This amendment does not improve the VP position. All it does is change election rules because one political apparatus thinks it will be a beneficial rule change. Your assertion that we might have had a Duke/Bacon King administration is also what I'd have expected had the right gotten an opportunity to change our electoral rulebook prior to the October election.

Ticket cohesion is a net positive for the executive branch. Removing this, therefore, is a net negative. If we want to adjust the executive branch to make improvements to game play, let's try filling the Ag vacancy with the Veep or something.

But let us not masquerade here. This is not a "reform" in the sense the public would expect. It's a desperate effort to strengthen the chances of one political group. More so than the voter ID laws Marokai is always bitching about are.

This is retarded. Do you know how long I've been fighting for reforms to the Vice Presidency? Since before I was elected Vice President myself when I was a member of the JCP. I fought for VP reforms for around 6-8 months before I finally left the party to form the UDL. Long before you showed up around here.

I've been fighting for reforms to the way we elect Vice Presidents, and the duties we give Vice Presidents, for nearly two years now, because I think it's genuinely the right thing to do. I didn't used to think this way, either. When I was young in the JCP, I opposed a lot of reforms to the Vice President purely out of partisan blindness. I used to oppose further restrictions on posting requirements to maintain active voters, out of JCP partisan blindness. But I eventually grew up around here and realized that the way some things happen around here are pretty boring.

It's true this would probably hurt bigger parties in general, but why shouldn't it? I think it's rather telling that you see this has a bad thing and that you are so often threatened by many of the reforms proposed around here. Is your grip on power so shaky, that one change to any part of the system may wring it loose? Why does it scare you so much, Napoleon?

The ironic thing is, when I was in the JCP proposing ways to improve and make the Vice Presidency more different and independent, I was accused of trying to "usurp power" from the very person Napoleon imitates in attitude so closely. Now that I'm not in the JCP trying to make the VP a more independent position, I'm accused of trying to cut the JCP into little pieces. I really can't win, can I?

Here's part of the problem I have with the Vice Presidency, and I'll let June 2010 Still-JCP-Marokai explain:

Marokai Blue: The role of the VP right now is really barely a role at all. Sometimes you get a person in there, like BK, who takes a bit more active role than the position requires, but basically it's a position where the role is defined by the attitude of the person in the office, I would really really want to see that change.

...

Especially since I think the choice of a VP is based off of political expediency more than anything else. I want the choice of the VP to actually have some sort of political consequences instead of trying to pretty up the ticket.

...

Of course, the current Vice President is the perfect example of a totally inactive choice picked only to attract votes, as he's really done jack since he took office, but he's a really truly nice guy and from the right-wing, so he gets votes anyway. I really want that to change.

There are two ways to solve this problem: Elect the VP and P separately, so each are judged individually and on their own merits, or give the Vice President more duties to perform so the choice of the Vice President has actual, quantifiable political and civil consequences, and isn't just the rose on a tuxedo, so to speak. Ideally, I would want both. But either would be a suitable enough change for me.

The former would also let small parties actually have a greater chance to win. If you see this as inherently undesirable, then you are a bad person.

Ticket cohesion can be a good thing, but one candidate or the other hiding behind the ticket is a far worse risk that we consistently face. I can't count on both hands how many times I've heard people say "Well, I really would prefer voting for someone else, but his Vice Presidential nominee really is such a charmer!" Presidential elections are, or at least should be, about the top of the ticket.

The VP at present has barely any responsibilities to be worth mentioning, and shouldn't be used as a way to pretty up the top of the ticket. It only leads to bad things. Presidents who don't deserve the position, or aren't legitimately the most popular candidate on their own, winning elections to positions they're not cut out for, specifically because of the Prom King appeal of their Vice President. Not only is this stupid and downright destructive, but changing it even if it weren't a problem would allow parts of this game to flourish in a greater way than they do currently, and if we care at all about making this game better, we should at least give something a chance.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 04:25:11 am by Mad Marokai, PPT »Logged

ZuWo
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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2012, 04:54:58 am »
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How on earth can a separate election of the President and the Vice President be interpreted as a means to strengthen or weaken particular political groups?
After all, the electorate which elects the President and the VP is exactly identical. The only reason why a voter would split his ticket by, for example, voting for a JCP presidential candidate and an RPP vice-presidential candidate or vice versa, could be because he believes the presidential or vice-presidential candidate in question is a better fit for the particular office.

And how can that be a bad idea? How can making Atlasian elections more democratic be something anyone should be afraid of - unless one is afraid that the dominant parties lose power?
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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2012, 07:58:09 am »
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still seems pointless and unnecessary

I really like the idea of possibly a Pres and VP from different tickets.  In the last election, it could easily have happened.

I liked Kal's (and maybe originally Marokai's but I really remember Kal firing me up about the idea) and promised that I would bring it forward.  

Right you are. Most "reforms" from Marokai's side are targeted at the JCP, trying to disable or handicap us by any means. It is why my attempts at giving the VP a stronger role are always met with opposition while meaningless changes to the position are pitched as reforms.

This amendment does not improve the VP position. All it does is change election rules because one political apparatus thinks it will be a beneficial rule change. Your assertion that we might have had a Duke/Bacon King administration is also what I'd have expected had the right gotten an opportunity to change our electoral rulebook prior to the October election.

Ticket cohesion is a net positive for the executive branch. Removing this, therefore, is a net negative. If we want to adjust the executive branch to make improvements to game play, let's try filling the Ag vacancy with the Veep or something.

But let us not masquerade here. This is not a "reform" in the sense the public would expect. It's a desperate effort to strengthen the chances of one political group. More so than the voter ID laws Marokai is always bitching about are.

I would just like to point out that one of the main reasons I am supporting this bill is because it will add something to the VP role.  VP will actually have to campaign, actually contribute.  There was at least one occasion where the reason I did not vote for the JCP candidate was the conduct of the VP candidate.  In fact, when I was asked by that President to vote for him, I point blank said my vote for him would be in spite of his VP while my vote against him would be because of his VP.  Had I the choice, I would have voted for the JCP president and the RPP Vice President.

If you want to think that this is only an attack on the JCP, go ahead and think that.  But remember, my main point is that if we have dissolution and go back to 4 to 6 parties, we will have fusion tickets again.  In order to make sure that we don't just have placecard VPs, lets make sure they actually have to campaign.

The reason I support this idea (whoever came up with it, but it is not so original that all the credit or the blame should go to one person) is that it is actually a reform that looks to the future.

Lastly, I could easily have seen a Snowguy/Cinci administration, so stop pretending that my proposal is meant to attack the JCP or help the RPP.  I am pretty bipartisan and do not appreciate the insinuation that all I am trying to do is attack or undermine you, your party, or bgwah.  I really just want to make the game a little more fun.  It is why I support dissolution of the two main parties and why I support this bill that will assist making that reality more competitive and fun.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2012, 11:36:49 am »
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I was thinking: If we do decide to elect the Vice President separately from the President, might we also consider electing other cabinet members independently as well? Not something that I would necessarily support, just something that I thought I'd throw out there.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2012, 11:43:34 am »
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I was thinking: If we do decide to elect the Vice President separately from the President, might we also consider electing other cabinet members independently as well? Not something that I would necessarily support, just something that I thought I'd throw out there.
Sounds like a ploy to screw JCPers out of cabinet spots and give them to RPPers, if you ask me.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2012, 07:43:34 pm »
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I was thinking: If we do decide to elect the Vice President separately from the President, might we also consider electing other cabinet members independently as well? Not something that I would necessarily support, just something that I thought I'd throw out there.

Sounds like a ploy to screw JCPers out of cabinet spots and give them to RPPers, if you ask me.

Well then it's a no-brainer!
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R2D2
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« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2012, 07:44:44 pm »
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I suggest we just ban JCP candidates from running in any election, because the RPP clearly hates Democracy.
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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2012, 12:29:46 am »
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This Amendment is now at a final vote, after a few days of no debate. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

Quote
Kal's Amendment

1. The Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be elected separately from the President.
2. Election to the Vice Presidency shall take place at the same time and under the same rules as election to the Presidency
3. This amendment shall not affect in any way other already existing constitutional frames of the Vice Presidency



Aye.
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R2D2
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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2012, 12:31:13 am »
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Abstain.
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