A poster boy for Amnesty

[Alcon]

I must admit that you are very "imaginative" in you use of language.  So, please "imaginatively" continue to babel.

You're incredibly consistent with spelling when correcting others' language.

(Consistently wrong!)

[CARLHAYDEN]

I must admit that you are very "imaginative" in you use of language.  So, please "imaginatively" continue to babel.

You're incredibly consistent with spelling when correcting others' language.

(Consistently wrong!)

Thank you for your compliment.

Yes, I know you consistently disagree with everything I post.

Oh, BTW, let me say that I am opposed to Communism. 

[CARLHAYDEN]

... the general policy of suspending deportations to places that have suffered major natural disasters, such as Haiti after its earthquake, is a good one.

Hmm.

Tell that to the three people who died as a result of that "good" policy.

As as already been pointed out to you, I do not agree with the release of deportable felons simply because of a temporary suspension of deportation into disaster zones.  They should be held until they can be deported.  So now that sibboleth has been dealt with, do you really think deportations of non-violent illegals into disaster zones would be good policy?

First, yes I know you are in lockstep with the other lefties on this forum.

Second, for you "temporary" can go on for years, so you, like Obama and twisting the language to mislead.

Third, yes, I know you want the American taxpayers to house, feed, clothe, and provide medical care for illegal aliens, rather than deport them.  Gives you a pretext for arguing for more and higher taxes.

Finally, for those who bothered to read the article linked by the initial post in this thread, you will find that the individual cited had been previously convicted of burglary, which by Florida statute (and common law) is a "violent felony" (something affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United States.  http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-9264.pdf)  So, Ernest's argument about non-violent felons does not apply in this case, but rather is merely another example of his trying to change the subject.

I would have thought to anyone with minimal reading comprehension it would have been abundantly clear that I was not including the person in this case when referring to non-violent illegals.

[quote]

I noticed you did not indicate just how long "temporary" can encompass.

Also, since you NOW indicate that your argument concernig "non-violent felons" did not extend to the case in point, are you therefor conceding that since he was convicted of a violent felony, he should have been deported before he was able to kill?

[Alcon]

I must admit that you are very "imaginative" in you use of language.  So, please "imaginatively" continue to babel.

You're incredibly consistent with spelling when correcting others' language.

(Consistently wrong!)

Thank you for your compliment.

Yes, I know you consistently disagree with everything I post.

Oh, BTW, let me say that I am opposed to Communism.  

"Babble," my irony-free friend.  Babel is the tower.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Also, since you NOW indicate that your argument concernig "non-violent felons" did not extend to the case in point, are you therefor conceding that since he was convicted of a violent felony, he should have been deported before he was able to kill?

I agree that he should not have been released until he could be deported.  That he should be deported back to a country whose already inadequate government had been effectively been wiped out by a natural disaster before at least the bare bones of government function had been restored, I absolutely reject.

(P.S. If you are going to criticize posts for spelling, shouldn't you at the bare minimum use a spell checker before you post?)

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Language is a fascinating indicator of one's personal biases - for example, aliens are creatures that come off of UFOs.

Hmm.

United States Code, Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter 1, Section 1101 Definitions. (a)(3) “The term “alien” means any person not a citizen or national of the United States.”

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/usc_sec_08_00001101----000-.html

Don't see any mention of UFOs or "creatures."

But you are correct that "(L)anguage is a fascinating indicator of one's personal biases."

Yours is showing.

Choosing to use this particular legal term instead of any of a number of equally serviceable and less dehumanizing-sounding quotidian terms is telling.

Nathan,

This is getting to be hysterically funny.

Your bizarrely reactionary and utterly sophomoric opinions on lexicography and linguistics are, you mean? Yes. Yes they are, increasingly.

I repeat, 'immigrant' as used is more accurate than 'alien' as used, and, for that matter, 'undocumented' is a more neutral and I would think broadly acceptable term than 'illegal'. Can we call them undocumented immigrants like people with human-baseline levels of compassion and move on?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Considering your repeated strenuous objections to the use of the phrase "illegal immigrant", CARL, it's clear that you are counted amongst those others who take the Humpty Dumpty approach.

Once again, I use the correct terminology, and you use inaccurate terminology.

If you check, you will see that the term "immigrant" means someone who moves to another country for a permanent residence.  All the experts agree that many of the aliens illegally present in this country are sojourners.

So, why do you persist in calling such persons immigrants?

Actually, if you look, I simply used the term "illegals" so as to avoid a pointless quibble over word meaning, but if you insist on being a Humpty-Dumpty, so be it.

Why do people use it?  Perhaps because its widely?

From dictionary.com:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

They don't seem to think all immigrants do so on a permanent basis.

To be fair, at present Merriam-Webster does include that prescriptive restriction that immigrants must intend on permanent residence that you Humpty-Dumpty on about.

Language is not immutable.  Whether you like it or not, the terms immigrant and immigration are losing the restriction that the crossing of a border be intended to be permanent.  Judging by your posts here on the Forum, I conclude that you find change intolerable, so I suppose I should not be surprised that you cling to the walls of your Humpty-Dumpty notions as to what language is.  However, keep in mind, Humpty-Dumpty had a great fall off of his wall, CARL.  Try as you might, you can't put the past back together again.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I must admit that you are very "imaginative" in you use of language.  So, please "imaginatively" continue to babel.

You're incredibly consistent with spelling when correcting others' language.

(Consistently wrong!)

Thank you for your compliment.

Yes, I know you consistently disagree with everything I post.

Oh, BTW, let me say that I am opposed to Communism. 

Unfortunately for you CARL, we aren't alien computers from the original series of Star Trek.  Your non-sequiturs are not going to cause us to shut down amid a flurry of sparks and smoke.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I might point out that 'migrant' is another serviceable word that seems to lack that particular prescriptivist connotation without being dehumanizing and/or excessively clinical. We okay with 'undocumented migrant'?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I might point out that 'migrant' is another serviceable word that seems to lack that particular prescriptivist connotation without being dehumanizing and/or excessively clinical. We okay with 'undocumented migrant'?

No.  While I won't throw a hissy-fit if you use "undocumented" I am certain others will.  I'm nowhere near as Humpty-Dumpty on this topic as CARL is, but "undocumented" makes it sound like they merely forgot to get some paperwork done.  That's not the case.  They are here illegally, and could not have gotten jobs here legally under current law. "Illegal" is the most appropriate adjective to use.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

They are here illegally, and could not have gotten jobs here legally under current law.

And whose fault is that? 'Illegal' carries connotations of malice, although that's not part of the technical definition. Many of them did, in fact, forget or lack the resources to get paperwork done.

[Хahar 🤔]

It's not so much that they forgot to get paperwork done as that they couldn't get it done.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

They are here illegally, and could not have gotten jobs here legally under current law.

And whose fault is that?

Their own in almost all cases.  They knew that they did not have permission to legally immigrate here and yet they still chose to come. (A very small portion have been forced to come here for the sex worker trade, tho most of those trapped in those unfortunate circumstances were not aware of what would be required of them by those they paid to smuggle them until they got here.)

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

It's interesting that you're using the language of 'choice' while in your parenthetical remark referencing people 'trapped in unfortunate circumstances', but I presume you take the view that there are for most such people other, preferable options? If so, may I ask you to expound on this?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

It's interesting that you're using the language of 'choice' while in your parenthetical remark referencing people 'trapped in unfortunate circumstances', but I presume you take the view that there are for most such people other, preferable options? If so, may I ask you to expound on this?

Nathan, practically anything else is preferable to being a sex slave, which are the 'unfortunate circumstances' I was trying to politely refer to.  About the only thing that isn't better is being dead, and that's a matter of opinion.

For most of those who come here illegally, there are economic benefits to themselves to do so, but that is no excuse for breaking the law.  Now, if we had a better immigration policy that both increased the amount of allowed immigration and was tough on those who employ illegal workers, we'd have a lot less illegal immigration, since it would reduce the economic incentives to come here illegally to do otherwise law-abiding work, and enable us to more easily keep out the undesirables we don't want coming here.

[CARLHAYDEN]

I might point out that 'migrant' is another serviceable word that seems to lack that particular prescriptivist connotation without being dehumanizing and/or excessively clinical. We okay with 'undocumented migrant'?

mi•grant

noun \ˈmī-grənt\

Definition of MIGRANT

: one that migrates: as a : a person who moves regularly in order to find work especially in harvesting crops

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/migrant

So, are you trying to tell us that all aliens illegally present in this country move regularly to find work?

Oh, as as to "undocumented," that is simply a politically correct euphemism for "illegal."

Would you call a person operating a motor vehicle on the public roadways without ever having obtained a drivers license, an "undocumented driver"?

[CARLHAYDEN]

Also, since you NOW indicate that your argument concernig "non-violent felons" did not extend to the case in point, are you therefor conceding that since he was convicted of a violent felony, he should have been deported before he was able to kill?

I agree that he should not have been released until he could be deported.  That he should be deported back to a country whose already inadequate government had been effectively been wiped out by a natural disaster before at least the bare bones of government function had been restored, I absolutely reject.

For how long should he be held? 

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I might point out that 'migrant' is another serviceable word that seems to lack that particular prescriptivist connotation without being dehumanizing and/or excessively clinical. We okay with 'undocumented migrant'?

mi•grant

noun \ˈmī-grənt\

Definition of MIGRANT

: one that migrates: as a : a person who moves regularly in order to find work especially in harvesting crops

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/migrant

So, are you trying to tell us that all aliens illegally present in this country move regularly to find work?

Oh, as as to "undocumented," that is simply a politically correct euphemism for "illegal."

Would you call a person operating a motor vehicle on the public roadways without ever having obtained a drivers license, an "undocumented driver"?

Yeah, the term is 'driving without a license'. I've never heard 'illegal driver' in my life.

Your linguistic prescriptivism in the interests of furthering the dehumanization of a group that you're afraid of is unintentionally hilarious. Keep it up!

Ernest: I agree with your prescription for the problem but I disagree that the economic straits that a lot of these people are coming from don't constitute 'unfortunate circumstances' in the sense that would justify breaking immigration laws. I think the immigration laws are unjust enough, and conditions in many parts of South America are bad enough, that we can afford to be forgiving of these circumstances. I understand that you disagree, and that's fine.

I of course entirely agree with you on the subject of sex slavery.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Also, since you NOW indicate that your argument concernig "non-violent felons" did not extend to the case in point, are you therefor conceding that since he was convicted of a violent felony, he should have been deported before he was able to kill?

I agree that he should not have been released until he could be deported.  That he should be deported back to a country whose already inadequate government had been effectively been wiped out by a natural disaster before at least the bare bones of government function had been restored, I absolutely reject.

For how long should he be held? 

Until there was at least a semi-functional society in Haiti again.  If things were done the way I like it, he'd be in Haiti now, unless of course he made another illegal entry after we deported him there.  Haiti is not yet back to the point to where deporting otherwise non-criminal illegal entrants is wat I would consider good policy, but it is back to the point where it is about as capable as it was before the earthquake of handling someone like this.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Also, since you NOW indicate that your argument concerning "non-violent felons" did not extend to the case in point, are you therefor conceding that since he was convicted of a violent felony, he should have been deported before he was able to kill?

I agree that he should not have been released until he could be deported.  That he should be deported back to a country whose already inadequate government had been effectively been wiped out by a natural disaster before at least the bare bones of government function had been restored, I absolutely reject.

For how long should he be held?  

Until there was at least a semi-functional society in Haiti again.  If things were done the way I like it, he'd be in Haiti now, unless of course he made another illegal entry after we deported him there.  Haiti is not yet back to the point to where deporting otherwise non-criminal illegal entrants is wat I would consider good policy, but it is back to the point where it is about as capable as it was before the earthquake of handling someone like this.

So, there is NO time limit?

Oh, and to return to the facts situation, the individual is currently dead, so deporting him now would be, well, pointless.

But, if he had been held after completion of his sentence for burglary until he might sometime be deported, what if he killed another inmate, or guard while incarcerated while awaiting deportation?  These things happen.

Finally, while I am NOT an immigration lawyer, it seems questionable that one could hold an illegal alien for an extended period of time after the completion of his sentence for a violent felony.  

I suggest you consult Zadvydas v. Davis, 533 U.S. 678, (2001),where the Supreme Court held that deportable aliens with criminal records could not be detained indefinitely.

The decision limited detention in such cases (absent terrorism charges pending), to six months

[CARLHAYDEN]

They are here illegally, and could not have gotten jobs here legally under current law.

And whose fault is that? 'Illegal' carries connotations of malice, although that's not part of the technical definition. Many of them did, in fact, forget or lack the resources to get paperwork done.

Nathan,

You get funnier and funnier.

"Malice" is a term which has very specific meanings.  While most serious crimes require general criminal intent, few require malice.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

They are here illegally, and could not have gotten jobs here legally under current law.

And whose fault is that? 'Illegal' carries connotations of malice, although that's not part of the technical definition. Many of them did, in fact, forget or lack the resources to get paperwork done.

Nathan,

You get funnier and funnier.

"Malice" is a term which has very specific meanings.  While most serious crimes require general criminal intent, few require malice.

What's funny is how myopic you are about what I'm saying here. Here's a hint: It's about parole, not langue.

[CARLHAYDEN]

They are here illegally, and could not have gotten jobs here legally under current law.

And whose fault is that? 'Illegal' carries connotations of malice, although that's not part of the technical definition. Many of them did, in fact, forget or lack the resources to get paperwork done.

Nathan,

You get funnier and funnier.

"Malice" is a term which has very specific meanings.  While most serious crimes require general criminal intent, few require malice.

What's funny is how myopic you are about what I'm saying here. Here's a hint: It's about parole, not langue.

What you are posting makes absolutely no sense.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

They are here illegally, and could not have gotten jobs here legally under current law.

And whose fault is that? 'Illegal' carries connotations of malice, although that's not part of the technical definition. Many of them did, in fact, forget or lack the resources to get paperwork done.

Nathan,

You get funnier and funnier.

"Malice" is a term which has very specific meanings.  While most serious crimes require general criminal intent, few require malice.

What's funny is how myopic you are about what I'm saying here. Here's a hint: It's about parole, not langue.

What you are posting makes absolutely no sense.

Have you actually read Saussure, and if not, will you make an effort to read up on the subject so that what I am posting will make no sense, or will you content yourself with the belief that it is my responsibility, not yours, that you cannot be bothered to Google two French words?