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| | |-+  Pew polls the world on opinions of the US, China, etc.
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Author Topic: Pew polls the world on opinions of the US, China, etc.  (Read 1130 times)
Sbane
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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2014, 08:07:09 pm »
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The ISI supported the Pakistani Taliban as much as the CIA did. It turned out be unfortunate for both countries.

That was a long time ago, and as pointed out, they weren't the Taliban. The ISI built the Taliban so they could have control of Afghanistan. As you may know, the relationship between the non-Pashtun Afghani population and Pakistan is not great. And to this day the ISI continues to support terrorist groups, and will continue to do so.
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ModerateVAVoter
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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2014, 09:47:42 pm »
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Pakistani dislike for the United States wasn't something that suddenly became a thing after 9/11 or as the United States started drone strikes. Sure, anti-American sentiments have gone from bad to worse, but these attitudes have been prevalent for a while now.

During the Cold War, the United States and Pakistan entered an alliance with different expectations. Pakistan saw its alliance with the US as a way to ensure its protection from India, but when the US refused to get engaged in the 1965 and 1971 Wars with India, Pakistan felt betrayed. I think the real breaking point for Pakistanis was 1989, after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, and the US didn't see any reason to continue pumping millions into Pakistan (and slapped sanctions on it). This is still in the back of peoples' minds in Pakistan. Not to mention, many people view the United States as hypocritical for preaching about democracy, yet supporting military dictators within Pakistan (Musharraf, for sure, while others directly blame the US for helping Zia-ul-Haq topple Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's government).

I'm not really sure there's much the United States could have done differently, as fully committing to Pakistan on its terms would have been costly and pushed India further away. Not to mention, the US simply wasn't interested. I'm not trying to critique American policy here. I'm just trying to make a point that Pakistani dislike for the US has been widespread for several decades now.


EDIT: Based on my perceptions (and I'd love to elaborate if someone PMs me), I don't think average Pakistanis were that upset after the OBL raid. I'm sure a large amount of people were unsurprised, if anything else. The incident with Raymond Davis was more damaging, imo.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 12:46:56 pm by ModerateVAVoter »Logged
Sbane
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« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2014, 09:43:38 am »
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What has Pakistan ever done for the US though? Why would they have any expectations from a relationship where they have given nothing? Even helping the mujahideen was ultimately in Pakistan's interests as they gained greater control over Afghanistan.

In addition, why do they think the US should support them in wars they unilaterally start against India for no good reason? Every single war in the history of India/Pakistan has been started by Pakistan. They have deluded themselves into thinking this is proper behavior befitting a country that is committed to a peaceful and prosperous world. And to make things worse, they have nuclear weapons.
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TDAS04
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« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2014, 01:27:56 pm »
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Why is Argentina so anti-American?
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Economic:  -2.45
Social:  -6.26
ModerateVAVoter
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« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2014, 02:08:06 pm »
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I was not starting a discussion on "oh, Pakistan has done so much for the United States, which has constantly stabbed it in the back." Some people very well think that, but that was not the point of my post. I was simply saying that Pakistanis didn't start disliking the US just because of drone strikes or the broader War on Terror. There's certainly been resentment towards the United States for decades now, as Pakistanis don't feel as if the US treated them like true allies.

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What has Pakistan ever done for the US though? Why would they have any expectations from a relationship where they have given nothing?

Pakistanis would point to their help in "opening" China and help with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Not to mention, seeing as India wouldn't play ball, the US was fairly anxious to have some sort of ally or influence in South Asia in the first place. Pakistan pulled out all the stops to present itself as anti-Communist and pro-Western. It realized that unlike India, it couldn't afford to be non-aligned. On the topic of China, that was precisely the reason Nixon didn't demand (West) Pakistan stop its atrocities in East Pakistan (not to mention his irrational hate for India and Indira Gandhi).

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In addition, why do they think the US should support them in wars they unilaterally start against India for no good reason? Every single war in the history of India/Pakistan has been started by Pakistan. They have deluded themselves into thinking this is proper behavior befitting a country that is committed to a peaceful and prosperous world. And to make things worse, they have nuclear weapons.

Probably because Pakistan joined CENTO, SEATO, and other mutual defense agreements with the United States. They thought by entering these agreements, the US was obligated to help against India. Of course, this didn't really materialize. Even when the US did send some aid to Pakistan (the USS Enterprise to the Bay of Bengal in 1971), it was already too late, as Pakistan was about to surrender.

I've always viewed this triangular relationship as a horrible soap opera. The US really wanted to have India, but couldn't. So it settled for the 'next best thing' in Pakistan, rather than be left out of the region entirely. Yet the US hoped it would eventually get India, so it didn't fully commit to Pakistan. When the US wouldn't fully commit, Pakistan felt betrayed. Yet India viewed the US as untrustworthy, as it had aligned with Pakistan in the first place. Ultimately, India was pushed right at the Soviet Union. Moral of the story: no one was happy.

I'm not trying to excuse Pakistan's behavior. I think it's clear they acted poorly in East Pakistan (1971), in their attempts to control Afghanistan, and in Kashmir. I'm merely trying to explain my understanding of the Pakistani perspective.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 02:18:19 pm by ModerateVAVoter »Logged
Mr. Morden
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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2014, 09:28:34 pm »
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In light of the MH17 shootdown, here are some more results from the poll on Russia and Putin (again, these surveys were done post-Ukraine revolution / Crime annexation, but pre-MH17:






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HOG & Blondie: A Tale of Atlas Future

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Watch Dave being briefed by the mods.

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Simfan34
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« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2014, 02:09:19 pm »
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Putin's numbers in Venezuela are interestingly high.
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« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2014, 02:21:01 pm »
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Why is Argentina so anti-American?
Looking at the drop between 2000 and 2002, my guess would be that is that something to do with the economic crisis of 2001. Argentinian considers the IMF to be responsible of it and, like everywhere outside the Western world, IMF=US.
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dead0man
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« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2014, 05:30:45 am »
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Which is stupid because the IMF didn't change the rules between giving Argentina a loan and then asking them to pay it back.  They spend too much, have way too much corruption and tax evasion is the national sport.  Just like a certain southern European country (or two) that is in the same boat.
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Quote from:   Martha Gellhorn for The Atlantic 1961
The unique misfortune of the Palestinian refugees is that they are a weapon in what seems to be a permanent war...today, in the Middle East, you get a repeated sinking sensation about the Palestinian refugees: they are only a beginning, not an end. Their function is to hang around and be constantly useful as a goad. The ultimate aim is not such humane small potatoes as repatriating refugees.
Edu
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« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2014, 09:24:41 am »
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Why is Argentina so anti-American?
Looking at the drop between 2000 and 2002, my guess would be that is that something to do with the economic crisis of 2001. Argentinian considers the IMF to be responsible of it and, like everywhere outside the Western world, IMF=US.

Not really. While the IMF and the World bank and others aren't loved by the population, the main complaints during the crisis were against our own politicians (more specifically President De la Rua, Finance minister Cavallo and former president Menem). Sure, some (especially the far left people) protested against everything that had to do with the US, but considering that they usually got less than 5% in the elections it's likely it was more bark than bite. At least this was the feeling I got living during those times.

I believe the explanation is much simpler and it is that something else happened between 2000 and 2002 and that was the election of George Bush. During the 2000 election controversy, people already sort of turned against Bush and that went a little bit farther when the US invaded Afghanistan. Of course the US favorability went even more to hell in 2002 when there were talks about invading Iraq and it never really recovered until Obama was elected. Clinton and Obama are viewed very differently than George Bush. In fact, considering all the leaks about the spying scandal and the continued involvement in the Middle East I'm surprised the rating is still that high.

Which is stupid because the IMF didn't change the rules between giving Argentina a loan and then asking them to pay it back.  They spend too much, have way too much corruption and tax evasion is the national sport.  Just like a certain southern European country (or two) that is in the same boat.

Corruption is a problem obviously, and tax evasion while still nothing to brag about, has been reduced in the past 10 or so years.

I do have to add that while the country image is that of one that doesn't pay it's debts, the fact is that for 10 years or more we have been doing nothing but paying back the external debt. In fact it went from being 153,6% to 34,7% of the GDP. As far as I know we don't really have a debt with the IMF since 2005. And in our debt restructuring 93% of the bondholders accepted Argentina's offer of the debt exchange and because the country was having an economic boom they received pretty big profits.

Today's problems are cause by just a tiny fraction of the bondholders (7%), the so called vulture funds.

You can argue if it was a good policy or not or if it was done well or not (the non Kirchnerist left here doesn't let a day go by without criticizing the government for paying the debt to the IMF, the World Bank, etc and I don't really know if the debt exchange was such a good idea as it was presented), but you can't really argue that we haven't been paying our debts for the past 10 years. In fact, I believe we got no loans to help us recover from the 2001 crisis and we have received no loans since then either (I would have to look this up tough).
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