UK General Discussion

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Well, they took the Canadian playbook for independance referendum. The scare campaign, no matter if the elements they try to scare people with are true or false.

No, that's any vote on anything.

[Silent Hunter]

Woolwich murder (Drummer Lee Rigby) sentences- whole life for Adebolajo, minimum 45 years for Adebowale. Defendants were removed from the dock beforehand after scuffles.

[CatoMinor]

Can Nigel Farage work for BBC weather please?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10597895/Nigel-Farage-makes-spoof-Ukip-weather-forecast.html

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Labour special conference gave overwhelming backing to the stuff mentioned upthread: only TU against was the Bakers (and they're slightly to the left of Lenin).

And now Lord Owen has given Labour £7,500.

[MaxQue]

And now Lord Owen has given Labour £7,500.

The SDP defector?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Dr Death himself, yes.

[afleitch]

Dr Death himself, yes.

That's what senility does to you I suppose.

[THE_TITAN]

Nigel Farage and the whole anti-EU crowd are really getting on my nerves. I really truly hope that UKIP win no seats at the 2015 general election, then at least Farage's leadership will be totally undermined and I doubt they'll be able to find another leader with comparable oratory skills. Then maybe people will stop listening to their wittering idiocy.

[Vega]

Nigel Farage and the whole anti-EU crowd are really getting on my nerves. I really truly hope that UKIP win no seats at the 2015 general election, then at least Farage's leadership will be totally undermined and I doubt they'll be able to find another leader with comparable oratory skills. Then maybe people will stop listening to their wittering idiocy.

If UKIP can't win at least one seat in 2015, then I'd say there movement is poppycock.

[Cassius]

Nigel Farage and the whole anti-EU crowd are really getting on my nerves. I really truly hope that UKIP win no seats at the 2015 general election, then at least Farage's leadership will be totally undermined and I doubt they'll be able to find another leader with comparable oratory skills. Then maybe people will stop listening to their wittering idiocy.

If UKIP can't win at least one seat in 2015, then I'd say there movement is poppycock.

Nonsense. The Liberal-Democrats (and their Liberal and Social-Democratic antecedents) spent roughly 50 years winning very few seats (and often only because those places happened to be traditional bastions of Liberal support or by having very popular candidates) and yet still remained a fairly credible political force (well, most of the time). I mean, considering that UKIP has a pretty, well, ramshackle, operation, then I wouldn't say that failure to win a single seat in 2015 would be failure at all. No, I imagine that their real aim is to get a creditable share of the vote (say 7.5 to 10 percent) in the general election, to give them an air of credibility. In the meantime, they will probably concentrate on trying to really put the brick on the accelerator with regards to their vote and seat share in the upcoming European elections, and on trying to nab some more council seats from the Tories (though this supposed business of trying to... Appeal... To Labor voters, is somewhat disconcerting and probably self-defeating). Also, would you regard the Green Party, which is comparatively weak, and it's movement, 'poppycock'?

[Vega]

Nigel Farage and the whole anti-EU crowd are really getting on my nerves. I really truly hope that UKIP win no seats at the 2015 general election, then at least Farage's leadership will be totally undermined and I doubt they'll be able to find another leader with comparable oratory skills. Then maybe people will stop listening to their wittering idiocy.

If UKIP can't win at least one seat in 2015, then I'd say there movement is poppycock.

Nonsense. The Liberal-Democrats (and their Liberal and Social-Democratic antecedents) spent roughly 50 years winning very few seats (and often only because those places happened to be traditional bastions of Liberal support or by having very popular candidates) and yet still remained a fairly credible political force (well, most of the time). I mean, considering that UKIP has a pretty, well, ramshackle, operation, then I wouldn't say that failure to win a single seat in 2015 would be failure at all. No, I imagine that their real aim is to get a creditable share of the vote (say 7.5 to 10 percent) in the general election, to give them an air of credibility. In the meantime, they will probably concentrate on trying to really put the brick on the accelerator with regards to their vote and seat share in the upcoming European elections, and on trying to nab some more council seats from the Tories (though this supposed business of trying to... Appeal... To Labor voters, is somewhat disconcerting and probably self-defeating). Also, would you regard the Green Party, which is comparatively weak, and it's movement, 'poppycock'?

The Green Party is not pushing for us to pull out of NATO, a la the UKIP is with the EU and Britain.

The Green Party is also not blustery like the UKIP either.

[Cassius]

Nigel Farage and the whole anti-EU crowd are really getting on my nerves. I really truly hope that UKIP win no seats at the 2015 general election, then at least Farage's leadership will be totally undermined and I doubt they'll be able to find another leader with comparable oratory skills. Then maybe people will stop listening to their wittering idiocy.

If UKIP can't win at least one seat in 2015, then I'd say there movement is poppycock.

Nonsense. The Liberal-Democrats (and their Liberal and Social-Democratic antecedents) spent roughly 50 years winning very few seats (and often only because those places happened to be traditional bastions of Liberal support or by having very popular candidates) and yet still remained a fairly credible political force (well, most of the time). I mean, considering that UKIP has a pretty, well, ramshackle, operation, then I wouldn't say that failure to win a single seat in 2015 would be failure at all. No, I imagine that their real aim is to get a creditable share of the vote (say 7.5 to 10 percent) in the general election, to give them an air of credibility. In the meantime, they will probably concentrate on trying to really put the brick on the accelerator with regards to their vote and seat share in the upcoming European elections, and on trying to nab some more council seats from the Tories (though this supposed business of trying to... Appeal... To Labor voters, is somewhat disconcerting and probably self-defeating). Also, would you regard the Green Party, which is comparatively weak, and it's movement, 'poppycock'?

The Green Party is not pushing for us to pull out of NATO, a la the UKIP is with the EU and Britain.

The Green Party is also not blustery like the UKIP either.

I was talking about our Green Party (unless you are a Brit?). I think, though I'm hardly 100 percent sure (or even 50 percent sure) that our Greens to support taking us out of NATO. Anyway, I'd hardly call being a eurosceptic, or indeed europhobe, a position of poppycock.

Also, I'd agree that UKIP can be blustery, but then, so too can the three main parties (Labour, in particular, seem to have gone in for a lot of rather windy rhetoric over the past year of so, whatever the merits of the policies that this rhetoric is being used to promote), so I don't see, per se, how that can be held against them.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Liberal seats, 1945-92

1945 - 12
1950 -   9
1951 -   6
1955 -   6
1959 -   6
1964 -   9
1966 - 12
1970 -   6
1974 - 14
1974 - 13
1979 - 11
1983 - 17 (23 Alliance)
1987 - 17 (22 Alliance)
1992 - 20 (as Liberal Democrats)

[afleitch]

UKIP won't win a seat in 2015 because they'll believe their own hype and think they are running a national campaign. They will also think their opponents in areas where they might have a chance are 'Tories' rather than acknowledge that they are individual MP's with different strengths and weaknesses.

[Cassius]

Liberal seats, 1945-92

1945 - 12
1950 -   9
1951 -   6
1955 -   6
1959 -   6
1964 -   9
1966 - 12
1970 -   6
1974 - 14
1974 - 13
1979 - 11
1983 - 17 (23 Alliance)
1987 - 17 (22 Alliance)
1992 - 20 (as Liberal Democrats)

It's still not really very many (granted they didn't put up that many candidates in the 1950's, but still). More importantly, whilst UKIP are a relatively new party (certainly in comparisom to the major parties, and some of the smaller ones) and thus haven't really had time to put down roots, a number of the seats the Liberals held throughout those years were ones with a fairly strong Liberal lean, where they had a reasonably strong organisation. UKIP has nothing of the sort. I was simply pointing out that the Liberals were quite irrelevant in terms of the business of seats held for much of the century, as UKIP undoubtedly will be after 2015. That doesn't take away from the fact that they were a relevant political force for much of that period with the potential to cause problems for other parties, as I believe UKIP is at the moment. Now, I'm not a card-carrying kipper, by any means. I don't believe the ridiculous hype about them that a lot of their supporters (and their leadership like to encourage). However, I don't think that they can be dismissively brushed aside as an irrelevance either.

[Famous Mortimer]

Seats aren't the only thing that matters.

If they win no seats but 8% of the vote, they will stick around in the public consciousness.

If they win no seats and 3.2% of the vote, not so much.

[You kip if you want to...]

What do we think of Clegg saying minority government's undemocratic? Complete BS surely. If anything, minority government would be better for public trust than coalition in terms of manifesto pledges etc.

[afleitch]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-26482599

Curious.

[Blair]

Nigel Farage and the whole anti-EU crowd are really getting on my nerves. I really truly hope that UKIP win no seats at the 2015 general election, then at least Farage's leadership will be totally undermined and I doubt they'll be able to find another leader with comparable oratory skills. Then maybe people will stop listening to their wittering idiocy.

If UKIP can't win at least one seat in 2015, then I'd say there movement is poppycock.

Nonsense. The Liberal-Democrats (and their Liberal and Social-Democratic antecedents) spent roughly 50 years winning very few seats (and often only because those places happened to be traditional bastions of Liberal support or by having very popular candidates) and yet still remained a fairly credible political force (well, most of the time). I mean, considering that UKIP has a pretty, well, ramshackle, operation, then I wouldn't say that failure to win a single seat in 2015 would be failure at all. No, I imagine that their real aim is to get a creditable share of the vote (say 7.5 to 10 percent) in the general election, to give them an air of credibility. In the meantime, they will probably concentrate on trying to really put the brick on the accelerator with regards to their vote and seat share in the upcoming European elections, and on trying to nab some more council seats from the Tories (though this supposed business of trying to... Appeal... To Labor voters, is somewhat disconcerting and probably self-defeating). Also, would you regard the Green Party, which is comparatively weak, and it's movement, 'poppycock'?

The Green Party is not pushing for us to pull out of NATO, a la the UKIP is with the EU and Britain.

The Green Party is also not blustery like the UKIP either.

I was talking about our Green Party (unless you are a Brit?). I think, though I'm hardly 100 percent sure (or even 50 percent sure) that our Greens to support taking us out of NATO. Anyway, I'd hardly call being a eurosceptic, or indeed europhobe, a position of poppycock.

Also, I'd agree that UKIP can be blustery, but then, so too can the three main parties (Labour, in particular, seem to have gone in for a lot of rather windy rhetoric over the past year of so, whatever the merits of the policies that this rhetoric is being used to promote), so I don't see, per se, how that can be held against them.

A UKIP Councillor saying that gay marriage causes storms
A UKIP MEP says that Muslims should sign an anti-benevolence pact
The UKIP leader says that we should bring back handguns, dunblane anyone?
UKIP's whole position of telling everyone in Britain that our country was going to be ravaged, raped and pillaged by the Romanians and Bulgarians.

This is in the last 3 months alone. I admit that all major parties have scandals and slip ups but UKIP are an entirely different breed of bluster.

Farage has said that if they don't win a seat in 2015 then he'll resign. It doesn't matter how bad their national campaign is-all he needs to do is find a winnable seat in Kent/Sussex and turn up in his hat with a pint of ale giving them warnings that the evil immigrants are coming.

At least the green party have a sitting MP

[Cassius]

Nigel Farage and the whole anti-EU crowd are really getting on my nerves. I really truly hope that UKIP win no seats at the 2015 general election, then at least Farage's leadership will be totally undermined and I doubt they'll be able to find another leader with comparable oratory skills. Then maybe people will stop listening to their wittering idiocy.

If UKIP can't win at least one seat in 2015, then I'd say there movement is poppycock.

Nonsense. The Liberal-Democrats (and their Liberal and Social-Democratic antecedents) spent roughly 50 years winning very few seats (and often only because those places happened to be traditional bastions of Liberal support or by having very popular candidates) and yet still remained a fairly credible political force (well, most of the time). I mean, considering that UKIP has a pretty, well, ramshackle, operation, then I wouldn't say that failure to win a single seat in 2015 would be failure at all. No, I imagine that their real aim is to get a creditable share of the vote (say 7.5 to 10 percent) in the general election, to give them an air of credibility. In the meantime, they will probably concentrate on trying to really put the brick on the accelerator with regards to their vote and seat share in the upcoming European elections, and on trying to nab some more council seats from the Tories (though this supposed business of trying to... Appeal... To Labor voters, is somewhat disconcerting and probably self-defeating). Also, would you regard the Green Party, which is comparatively weak, and it's movement, 'poppycock'?

The Green Party is not pushing for us to pull out of NATO, a la the UKIP is with the EU and Britain.

The Green Party is also not blustery like the UKIP either.

I was talking about our Green Party (unless you are a Brit?). I think, though I'm hardly 100 percent sure (or even 50 percent sure) that our Greens to support taking us out of NATO. Anyway, I'd hardly call being a eurosceptic, or indeed europhobe, a position of poppycock.

Also, I'd agree that UKIP can be blustery, but then, so too can the three main parties (Labour, in particular, seem to have gone in for a lot of rather windy rhetoric over the past year of so, whatever the merits of the policies that this rhetoric is being used to promote), so I don't see, per se, how that can be held against them.

A UKIP Councillor saying that gay marriage causes storms
A UKIP MEP says that Muslims should sign an anti-benevolence pact
The UKIP leader says that we should bring back handguns, dunblane anyone?
UKIP's whole position of telling everyone in Britain that our country was going to be ravaged, raped and pillaged by the Romanians and Bulgarians.

This is in the last 3 months alone. I admit that all major parties have scandals and slip ups but UKIP are an entirely different breed of bluster.

Farage has said that if they don't win a seat in 2015 then he'll resign. It doesn't matter how bad their national campaign is-all he needs to do is find a winnable seat in Kent/Sussex and turn up in his hat with a pint of ale giving them warnings that the evil immigrants are coming.

At least the green party have a sitting MP

Meh, I don't see what's so awful about the comment on handguns. You can disagree with it, but I'm not sure it counts as 'out there' or blustery. As for the Bulgarians, I don't recall any kipper actually saying that they're going to come and rape and pillage. On the other hand, given that UKIP's raison d'etre, so to speak, is opposition to the EU and all the flim flam (right of travel laws etc) that comes with it, it would be rather silly for them not to hammer away on this issue, which is, after all, a reasonably important one.

As, I think, I've said before, the reason why UKIP appears to produce so many 'cranks', so to speak, is because they are a fairly new (or at least, newly prominent) party, which lacks the mechanisms posessed by the traditional parties for weeding out candidates and speakers who are, perhaps, 'undesirable'. Yet, at the same time, and unlike, for the most part, the Greens, they have had a large amount of publicity over the past couple of years. I bet you that if the Greens were polling 10-12 percent of the vote and looked set to do well in the European elections then a similar number of wacky characters and interesting comments would come out of the woodwork for them. So, I wouldn't say UKIP's bluster is particularly special, just that the circumstances have conspired to put a spotlight on it.

[You kip if you want to...]

RIP to Bob Crow, thoughts with his family.

Breaking news.

[Hifly]

Shocking news. RIP

[Silent Hunter]

Rest in Peace. Certainly a major figure in British politics.

[Supersonic]

Bob Crow on Thatcher's death: "I won't shed a single tear. As far as I am concerned she can rot in hell."

Still, RIP.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

RIP FF