UK General Discussion

[You kip if you want to...]

Just reading about the PM attacking the Welsh government. There is no need.

Amid signs Labour is not capitalising on the difficulties, including its shock defeat to Respect's George Galloway in the Bradford West by-election, Cameron launched a withering attack on the Labour-run Welsh government.

It was presiding over "a complete and utter shambles" in the NHS and letting pupils fall behind English colleagues by "clinging on to old, failed, stale ideologies" in education, he said.

"While all this is happening, Welsh children slip further and further behind in the international rankings," he said.

"Against other developed countries they come 30th for science, 38th for reading, 40th for maths - below average across the board - unlike any of the other nations in the UK.

"You'd think this called for some real soul-searching, some real ambition, but you know what the Welsh education minister said? That he didn't expect any "real improvement" by the next rankings - a whole three years later.

"This is nothing less than a national scandal.

"It might be the political culture in Wales just to go along with the status quo and not rock the boat but we've got to be bolder than that."

Welsh Labour described the PM's comments as "offensive smears".

Torfaen Assembly Member Lynne Neagle said: "Unlike the Tories in England, Welsh Labour in government has worked with the teaching professions to implement successful change.

"That's why we don't have league tables. That's why we've abolished SATs, introduced the Foundation Phase and created a skill-based curriculum.

"We oppose the Tory obsession for a model of education that's driven by antagonism and competition. It's why we've rejected academies and so-called free schools.

"Welsh Labour has maintained faith in the comprehensive model of education because it delivers for all our children.

"That's what the people of Wales voted for in the Assembly elections last May. We have a mandate from the people for our policies - David Cameron doesn't."

I like that zing at the end (although, Welsh Labour narrowly missed there own target of a majority, mind.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/04/06/trust-in-david-cameron-hits-new-low_n_1408585.html?ref=uk

[You kip if you want to...]

Today, it's been twenty years since the Conservatives have won an election.
(Or twenty years since the electorate last returned a Conservative government, for you pedants out there.)

[You kip if you want to...]

Dennis Skinner having a good old rant about the Liberals on Election Night 1992, still very much rings true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFfkJ_l-rHM&

[You kip if you want to...]

Smithson saying the Labour lead's growing because more people are blaming the Coalition for the cuts, rather than Brown Labour. I agree with his hypothesis. If that gap closes completely, it's game over for Nick and Dave, it's the line they've been holding onto ("Because of the mess that he inherited from the last government!") for dear life for the past two years.

http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/04/11/labour-closes-the-blame-gap-by-10-percent/

[You kip if you want to...]

Lucy Powell selected as the Labour candidate for Manchester Central. There'll be a by-election there after the Mayoral election (or is it Commissioner, can't remember).

[Sibboleth]

Police Commissioner, yeah. I will set up a by-election thread at some point, but it can wait for ages, I think.

[Leftbehind]

Mayoral elections can f' off as well.

[Vosem]

Just reading about the PM attacking the Welsh government. There is no need.

Amid signs Labour is not capitalising on the difficulties, including its shock defeat to Respect's George Galloway in the Bradford West by-election, Cameron launched a withering attack on the Labour-run Welsh government.

It was presiding over "a complete and utter shambles" in the NHS and letting pupils fall behind English colleagues by "clinging on to old, failed, stale ideologies" in education, he said.

"While all this is happening, Welsh children slip further and further behind in the international rankings," he said.

"Against other developed countries they come 30th for science, 38th for reading, 40th for maths - below average across the board - unlike any of the other nations in the UK.

"You'd think this called for some real soul-searching, some real ambition, but you know what the Welsh education minister said? That he didn't expect any "real improvement" by the next rankings - a whole three years later.

"This is nothing less than a national scandal.

"It might be the political culture in Wales just to go along with the status quo and not rock the boat but we've got to be bolder than that."

Welsh Labour described the PM's comments as "offensive smears".

Torfaen Assembly Member Lynne Neagle said: "Unlike the Tories in England, Welsh Labour in government has worked with the teaching professions to implement successful change.

"That's why we don't have league tables. That's why we've abolished SATs, introduced the Foundation Phase and created a skill-based curriculum.

"We oppose the Tory obsession for a model of education that's driven by antagonism and competition. It's why we've rejected academies and so-called free schools.

"Welsh Labour has maintained faith in the comprehensive model of education because it delivers for all our children.

"That's what the people of Wales voted for in the Assembly elections last May. We have a mandate from the people for our policies - David Cameron doesn't."

I like that zing at the end (although, Welsh Labour narrowly missed there own target of a majority, mind.)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/04/06/trust-in-david-cameron-hits-new-low_n_1408585.html?ref=uk

So Wales seems to be doing even worse than the US, and the Welsh government replies with a system designed to lessen competition?! Competition (call it 'antagonism' if you want) is the ultimate motivator. It's like they're trying to worsen Welsh schools (though, of course, they really do sincerely believe what they're doing is better for students. It's actually a little frightening.)

[ModerateCoward]

Competition = republican code for giving away public money to the rich.

[Vosem]

Competition = republican code for giving away public money to the rich.

That's not how I interpreted the article. Competition in an educational setting means making the students compete against each other, maybe even be 'antagonistic', as a motivator. Rivalry is, and always has been a good motivator. Apparently Welsh Labour thinks this would not be good, because sharing, or something.

But maybe 'competition' in this context means the Tories want to give away Welsh children to the rich. After all, I only read the excerpt Robot Rominee quoted. Could you enlighten me?

[Senator MaxQue]

In case of UK, competition is competition between schools.
More or less, private schools, which is bad.
Private schools shouldn't be funded by the government.
And comparing notes between schools is a bad idea because private schools can just exclude someone for having too low marks, so the averages are biaised. Here, in Quebec, we had a scandal because some school were giving answers of government exams or inflating notes to be well ranked in rankings.

[politicus]

In case of UK, competition is competition between schools.
More or less, private schools, which is bad.
Private schools shouldn't be funded by the government.

Why not? Ours are 80% government funded which works well. It gives the parents a real choice, even if they are not wealthy.

(sorry, for going off topic... Wont give reply back if he answers - just curious)

[Senator MaxQue]

In case of UK, competition is competition between schools.
More or less, private schools, which is bad.
Private schools shouldn't be funded by the government.

Why not? Ours are 80% government funded which works well. It gives the parents a real choice, even if they are not wealthy.

(sorry, for going off topic... Wont give reply back if he answers - just curious)

Well, here, they are funded at 60%, yet, most are really expensive, while the public system has problems because it gets cuts after cuts after cuts.

[You kip if you want to...]

The idea of publically funding a private school is horrendous. Why setup a private school and expect the tax-payer to pick up the pieces?

[dialectical fetishist]

Just nationalize all the schools... far easier solution.

[politicus]

The idea of publically funding a private school is horrendous. Why setup a private school and expect the tax-payer to pick up the pieces?

People who put their children in a private school are taxpayers too, why should they have to pay everything?
If you only have public schools its "one size fits all". No Rudolf Steiner schools, no Jewish schools etc. Only 100 % privately funded schools for the elite and uniform public schools for everybody else regardsless of their values and wishes.

[Vosem]

In case of UK, competition is competition between schools.
More or less, private schools, which is bad.
Private schools shouldn't be funded by the government.
And comparing notes between schools is a bad idea because private schools can just exclude someone for having too low marks, so the averages are biaised. Here, in Quebec, we had a scandal because some school were giving answers of government exams or inflating notes to be well ranked in rankings.

Competition between schools is good, and comparing notes is good, too, because it motivates schools that do poorly to do better or face cuts. That said, no way should private schools be government-funded.

Just nationalize all the schools... far easier solution.

No. If I want to make money by setting up a better-quality school than the government does and charging students to enter, who's to stop me from making money?

[You kip if you want to...]

The idea of publically funding a private school is horrendous. Why setup a private school and expect the tax-payer to pick up the pieces?

People who put their children in a private school are taxpayers too, why should they have to pay everything?
If you only have public schools its "one size fits all". No Rudolf Steiner schools, no Jewish schools etc. Only 100 % privately funded schools for the elite and uniform public schools for everybody else regardsless of their values and wishes.

Britain doesn't have that problem, religious schools are common in the public sector (I went to one, in fact).

[Leftbehind]

We have the reverse with far too many of our schools being religious. The idea that we should be taxed to pay for your kids to receive lavish private education, while our state schools are left to rot, which we then have to send our kids to, is obvious nonsense. As WD says: nationalise the lot and abolish private schools.

No. If I want to make money by setting up a better-quality school than the government does and charging students to enter, who's to stop me from making money?

The government and the voting public who don't want you to make money from schooling?

[Senator MaxQue]

In case of UK, competition is competition between schools.
More or less, private schools, which is bad.
Private schools shouldn't be funded by the government.
And comparing notes between schools is a bad idea because private schools can just exclude someone for having too low marks, so the averages are biaised. Here, in Quebec, we had a scandal because some school were giving answers of government exams or inflating notes to be well ranked in rankings.

Competition between schools is good, and comparing notes is good, too, because it motivates schools that do poorly to do better or face cuts. That said, no way should private schools be government-funded.

The problem is than private schools have better marks, because they choose the better students.
Marks aren't saying anything about the quality of their teaching, but about the quality of their method of selection.

[Sibboleth]

The blunt reality wrt Wales is that 'competition' (however defined) in education is not exactly practical. There's a reason why Wales was one of the most important strongholds of the movement to end selective education.

[politicus]

The blunt reality wrt Wales is that 'competition' (however defined) in education is not exactly practical. There's a reason why Wales was one of the most important strongholds of the movement to end selective education.

Low population density in rural Wales? Or something else?

[Sibboleth]

The blunt reality wrt Wales is that 'competition' (however defined) in education is not exactly practical. There's a reason why Wales was one of the most important strongholds of the movement to end selective education.

Low population density in rural Wales? Or something else?

That's half of it, yeah. The other half is that most of the bits of Wales that don't have a very low population density are basically monolithically working class (and, for the most part, still not entirely urban). There isn't the demographic base to make certain approaches to education viable.

edit: 'most of' being rather important. Most of. Most of. Most of.

[Vosem]

No. If I want to make money by setting up a better-quality school than the government does and charging students to enter, who's to stop me from making money?

The government and the voting public who don't want you to make money from schooling?

Meh...private schools are a bad idea in general, but the government really shouldn't be allowed to stop me from making money in a way that doesn't hurt anybody.

[ModerateCoward]

No. If I want to make money by setting up a better-quality school than the government does and charging students to enter, who's to stop me from making money?

The government and the voting public who don't want you to make money from schooling?

Meh...private schools are a bad idea in general, but the government really shouldn't be allowed to stop me from making money in a way that doesn't hurt anybody.

Wait, and you are a Republican?