UK General Discussion

[Supersonic]

What an absolute disaster. I'm honestly speechless.

The UK doesn't even back UN weapons inspectors now. Just.. madness.

[Silent Hunter]

Especially with reports of a napalm attack earlier this week.

I'd have backed this in principle (something needs to be done about this), but Parliament is sovereign in this matter and we'll be staying out.

[freefair]

MPs went for a totally pacifist stance.

[Silent Hunter]

MPs went for a totally pacifist stance.

One wonders if the Labour stand against the main motion was intended to ensure its defeat... or that was just an accident.

[Supersonic]

If I was Cameron, I would have ignored Parliament and just gone the 'prerogative' route. This is just a complete disaster.

[Silent Hunter]

If I was Cameron, I would have ignored Parliament and just gone the 'prerogative' route. This is just a complete disaster.

The Iraq precedent is there and it isn't going (FWIW, the government held debates with motions to adjourn in 1982 and 1991, which could be taken as votes for/against those wars).

[doktorb]

Iraq has cast a shadow, and a precedent.  All MPs are deeply wary of the Iraq vote and what happened thereafter. Most members of the public who give a damn are wary too

Not allowing the Commons to vote would have brought back all the worst memories of Blair and dodgy dossiers.

[Phony Moderate]

The shouts of "resign!" remind me of the final episode of the original House of Cards series.

[freefair]

If I had a magic wand, this is how my sort of constitutional government would work ALL the time.

[bullmoose88]

Government's defeat here isn't of the sort that would trigger a new election right? Does the 5 year term now eliminate that risk?

[freefair]

Government's defeat here isn't of the sort that would trigger a new election right? Does the 5 year term now eliminate that risk?

That would have to be on a key manifesto/platform promise. In this case I don't think fixed term parliaments have had in impact.

[Supersonic]

Government's defeat here isn't of the sort that would trigger a new election right? Does the 5 year term now eliminate that risk?

Not necessarily, but Cameron has been severely undermined and his authority has been crippled. I imagine the fixed term Parliament bill can be scrapped whenever.

[afleitch]

The government is fine. It held a vote on military action and failed. If however Syria takes a turn for the worst and hard evidence comes to light of chemical attacks it will probably rebound on the opposition.

[Lurker]

What a total screw-up by Cameron. Why on earth would he call this vote if he weren't sure of getting a majority?


Is there any list that shows which MPs voted yes/no? Wouldn't be surprised if some Tory ultra-right-wingers voted "no" just to embarass the PM.

[Leftbehind]

Not yet, but labourwhips is tweeting some figures. Con 30 against, 14 abstain & Lib 11 against, 13 abstain.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Government's defeat here isn't of the sort that would trigger a new election right?

In this post-war period this would have been seen as, at the very least, a resigning matter for the PM (one reason why Wilson got away with supporting the Americans in Vietnam without actually sending troops was his tiny majority in the 1964-1966 parliament). But convention changed after the watershed hung parliament of February 1974, so the government is as secure as it was this time last night.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What a total screw-up by Cameron. Why on earth would he call this vote if he weren't sure of getting a majority?

Cameron is an appalling parliamentary manager, basically. Someone else must have cocked up as well though. Would suspect that there's a reasonable chance that one or both of the Chief Whip and Leader of the House will resign.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The government got the tone very, very wrong throughout. You don't win this sort of vote via hectoring, particularly when the public is firmly against.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

There are rumours that two Tory ministers failed to vote because they were at a meeting.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Anyways, the Constitution just changed today and in favour of Parliament and against the executive. This is really important.

[YL]

What a total screw-up by Cameron. Why on earth would he call this vote if he weren't sure of getting a majority?


Is there any list that shows which MPs voted yes/no? Wouldn't be surprised if some Tory ultra-right-wingers voted "no" just to embarass the PM.

Hansard has a full list.  (Find the Official Report, and it starts on p1551, followed by Bercow's "Order. Mr MacNeil, you are like an erupting volcano. Calm yourself, man!".)

There's a list of Tory and Lib Dem MPs who voted against here.  Some of the Tories are "usual suspects", people like David Davis and Richard Shepherd.  The MP the Tories selected via an open primary, Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes), who has been a bit of a maverick, is also on the list.  Two Lib Dems who currently don't have the whip, David Ward (Bradford East) and Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) also voted against, and there were several abstentions, including Tim Farron.

I'm still puzzled about how the Government apparently failed to realise the motion was in trouble, given that I'd got the impression that it might be just from reading the Guardian's live blog and noticing how many Tories were making rebellious noises.

[RedPrometheus]

How often do government motions actually fail in parliament? I think it's very surprising that the government allowed a vote on such a high-profile motion an didn't check their votes.

Is it possible that the Tories get rid of Cameroon before the election?

[Silent Hunter]

How often do government motions actually fail in parliament? I think it's very surprising that the government allowed a vote on such a high-profile motion an didn't check their votes.

Not that often, but still not that rare; some administrations with clear majorities can go with no defeats at all.

For a matter of foreign policy, however, it's like finding a toothy hen... the last government defeat on a matter of war appears to have been in 1782 on continuing to fight against American independence.

[afleitch]

Blair poisoned the well. It took is a generation to get over Suez and it will take the same to get over Iraq. The public don't trust politicians, don't trust intervention and worst of all don't trust intelligence services.

[Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese]

Not that often, but still not that rare; some administrations with clear majorities can go with no defeats at all.

WTF! Callaghan and Wilson?! <.<