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Author Topic: The basis of Mormonism is no more illegitimate than the basis of any relgion  (Read 3228 times)
Jacobtm
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« on: January 28, 2012, 03:24:59 am »
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It's surprising to see so many religious people upset at Mormonism for not being a real religion.

At its core, it's no more or less ridiculous than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.

Just some crazy story made up by someone that, for some reason, people believe.

No more crazy than saying Jesus walked on water or anything like that.

Just that Christianity has a ton of people who believe in it, Mormonism less so.
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2012, 03:26:04 am »
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Mormonism is also a lot more recent and therefore easier to debunk/dismiss. So yeah....
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dead0man
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2012, 07:22:02 am »
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Agreed.
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Quote from:   Martha Gellhorn for The Atlantic 1961
The unique misfortune of the Palestinian refugees is that they are a weapon in what seems to be a permanent war...today, in the Middle East, you get a repeated sinking sensation about the Palestinian refugees: they are only a beginning, not an end. Their function is to hang around and be constantly useful as a goad. The ultimate aim is not such humane small potatoes as repatriating refugees.
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2012, 09:03:45 am »
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Agreed.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2012, 09:48:35 am »
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Mormonism is also a lot more recent and therefore easier to debunk/dismiss. So yeah....

this is basically correct.  much of the Book of Mormon is demonstrably and uncontroversially untrue (despite the best efforts of apologist PhDs at Brigham Young).  meanwhile time provides a lot more obfuscation and mystification that the OT and NT can rely on, with only the more fantastic claims, such as the Ark, subject to falsification.
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 10:22:18 am »
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At its core, it's no more or less ridiculous than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.

the bible was written by dozens of people over many centuries - yet it is very deep and entirely cohesive.  Joseph Smith, on the other hand, is a testimony of a single person, yet his stuff is weak and doesn't mesh with the bible is MANY areas.

if you can't see that difference, then this thread is useless.
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 10:24:41 am »
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if you can't see that difference, then this thread is useless.

I see grubby human fingerprints all over the Bible. I expect the Book of Mormon is the same.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2012, 10:38:18 am »
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if you can't see that difference, then this thread is useless.

I see grubby human fingerprints all over the Bible. I expect the Book of Mormon is the same.

define these "grubby human fingerprints"

also, the way the Book of Mormon was supposedly discovered and translated is NOT the same as the bible.  Plus, Joseph Smith's own teachings in many areas have been rejected by the LDS - even his so-called followers think he was full of beans.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 07:22:25 pm »
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I think we can all agree that LDS is perhaps a bridge to far...
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Jacobtm
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 12:48:48 pm »
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the bible was written by dozens of people over many centuries - yet it is very deep and entirely cohesive. 

Entirely cohesive?

The Bible contradicts itself and gives contradictory messages all over the place.

You lot have just developed a very convoluted way of thinking to reconcile ''Thou shall not kill'' with all the slaughter that goes on in the Bible. Or thinking homosexuality is a sin even though Jesus never said anything about it, but just completely ignoring other parts of the old testament.

Hell, the Bible contradicts itself on the order in which God created the plants and animals.
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Why do so many people here cheer on war crimes?
Israel and the United States "killing dozens of civilians with explosives", as you phrase it, has, throughout history, almost always been a good thing.
The Mikado
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 04:25:28 pm »
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the bible was written by dozens of people over many centuries - yet it is very deep and entirely cohesive.  

Entirely cohesive?

The Bible contradicts itself and gives contradictory messages all over the place.

You lot have just developed a very convoluted way of thinking to reconcile ''Thou shall not kill'' with all the slaughter that goes on in the Bible. Or thinking homosexuality is a sin even though Jesus never said anything about it, but just completely ignoring other parts of the old testament.

Hell, the Bible contradicts itself on the order in which God created the plants and animals.

You...picked very poor examples of problems with the Bible.  The commandment against killing is better translated as a commandment against murder, which is by definition extralegal killing.  There's extensive laws regarding legal killing, and the commandment rules out killing outside of those rules.

As for the homosexuality thing, "what Jesus said" is hardly the basis of Christian doctrine on most points.  In this case, St. Paul's epistles are pretty clear in terms of upholding and even strengthening the OT rules.

EDIT: A better example of a bona fide Biblical contradiction is the confusion over whether Noah took 2 of each animal or 7 of each animal on the ark (though that has a reasonable-enough explanation offered that Noah took 7 of every clean animal and 2 of all the unclean animals).
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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 06:11:21 pm »
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You lot have just developed a very convoluted way of thinking to reconcile ''Thou shall not kill'' with all the slaughter that goes on in the Bible.

Dude, please:

Exo 20:13 “You shall not murder.”

Capital punishment: in the very next chapter of the same book:

Exo 21: 12 “Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.


Obviously, you don’t know the difference between to kill and to murder.

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Or thinking homosexuality is a sin even though Jesus never said anything about it

Jesus never said anything specific about bestiality either…so what, exactly is your point?  But he did speak in general terms about “sexual immorality” in the context of Jews who knew the OT…and he did define marriage as heterosexual…and he did define marriage as the proper place for sex…so that doesn’t leave much room for either bestiality or homosexuality.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2012, 12:59:05 am »
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They are Abrahamists like 54% of earthlings.
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BYUmormon
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« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2012, 09:57:30 pm »
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At its core, it's no more or less ridiculous than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.

the bible was written by dozens of people over many centuries - yet it is very deep and entirely cohesive.  Joseph Smith, on the other hand, is a testimony of a single person, yet his stuff is weak and doesn't mesh with the bible is MANY areas.

if you can't see that difference, then this thread is useless.

There were actually 4 total witnesses-Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris. You sound like a good Christian. You should sincerely pray to god asking him if the church is true. You should also go to Mormon.org, or visit a Mormon Church(visitors are welcomed). If the Missionaries ever knock on your door, let them in. They have a good message.   
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012, 10:00:45 pm »
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At its core, it's no more or less ridiculous than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.

the bible was written by dozens of people over many centuries - yet it is very deep and entirely cohesive.  Joseph Smith, on the other hand, is a testimony of a single person, yet his stuff is weak and doesn't mesh with the bible is MANY areas.

if you can't see that difference, then this thread is useless.

There were actually 4 total witnesses-Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris. You sound like a good Christian. You should sincerely pray to god asking him if the church is true. You should also go to Mormon.org, or visit a Mormon Church(visitors are welcomed). If the Missionaries ever knock on your door, let them in. They have a good message.   

if you're a real poster this thread is about to get awesome
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jmfcst
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« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2012, 11:07:28 pm »
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You should sincerely pray to god asking him if the church is true...

there it is, the brainwashing, again...
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012, 11:15:28 pm »
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BYUmormon,

since you are asking me to pray to God if your church is true, what did God tell you in regard to the following?...

---

Brigham Young: Death to inter-racial couples:

“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110)

---

Cain was an associate of Lucifer and is the Father of the Negros.

“Though he was a rebel and AN ASSOCIATE OF LUCIFER IN PRE-EXISTENCE, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, CAIN MANAGED TO ATTAIN THE PRIVILEGE OF MORTAL BIRTH. Under Adam's tutelage, he began in this life to serve God....he came out in open rebellion, fought God, worshiped Lucifer, and slew Abel.... “As a result of his rebellion, CAIN WAS CURSED WITH A DARK SKIN; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who ARE NOT WORTHY to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition. As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to RULE over SATAN.”(Mormon Doctrine, p. 102)

---

The Mormon prophet Brigham Young on the appearence of Africans:

“Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291)

---

Besides a black skin, Africans have a black heart, according to Mormon publication Times and Seasons, edited by future prophet John Taylor:

“The descendants of Ham, besides A BLACK SKIN which has ever been a curse that has followed an apostate of the holy priesthood, as well as a BLACK HEART, have been servants to both Shem and Japheth, and the ABOLITIONISTS ARE TRYING TO MAKE VOID THE CURSE OF GOD, BUT IT WILL REQUIRE MORE POWER THAN MAN POSSESSES TO COUNTERACT THE DECREES OF ETERNAL WISDOM.”
(Times and Seasons, Vol. 6, page 857)

---
 
“Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness HE BECAME THE FATHER OF AN INFERIOR RACE.”
(The Way to Perfection, page 101)

---

“There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with OTHER DISADVANTAGES, while another is BORN WHITE with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there.”
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 61)

---

“NEGROES IN THIS LIFE ARE DENIED THE PRIESTHOOD; under NO circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation IS NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM... “NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES WHERE THE RECEIPT OF CERTAIN SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS ARE CONCERNED...” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 477)



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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2012, 10:31:53 am »
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They didn't know better back then.
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Convincing BRTD to drop the Sneakers O'Toole BS is like convincing Sneakers O'Toole to take his sneakers off.

(I realize I'm probably just further encouraging him by saying that, and for this I apologize.)
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jmfcst
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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2012, 10:38:05 am »
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They didn't know better back then.

you mean the founders of the LDS, who God supposedly used to restore His one true church, claimed revelation from God, which God, obviously, did NOT give them?!

I'm shocked...shocked, I tell you!
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012, 11:13:42 am »
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At its core, it's no more or less ridiculous than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.

the bible was written by dozens of people over many centuries - yet it is very deep and entirely cohesive.  Joseph Smith, on the other hand, is a testimony of a single person, yet his stuff is weak and doesn't mesh with the bible is MANY areas.

if you can't see that difference, then this thread is useless.

Actually I could not agree with you more - in terms of aesthetics, obviously Catholicism is superior to Mormonism.  But then again, I don't think that's what you're getting at.
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012, 02:40:03 pm »
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jmf, there were plenty of non-Mormon Christian sects (sect isn't even the right word - the Christian establishment in a vast part of the country) that echoed in their own way the sentiments expressed by Brigham Young and others on blacks, at times not even without a cosmological/theological addendum to it (blacks descended from a separate black Adam, etc).
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jmfcst
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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2012, 03:31:31 pm »
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jmf, there were plenty of non-Mormon Christian sects (sect isn't even the right word - the Christian establishment in a vast part of the country) that echoed in their own way the sentiments expressed by Brigham Young and others on blacks, at times not even without a cosmological/theological addendum to it (blacks descended from a separate black Adam, etc).

well, sure, there are doctrinal errors in most, if not all, Christian churches...but the Mormons weren't claiming to be just another Christian church, rather they are claiming to be the ONLY true Christian church who restored THE true Gospel to the world.

Obviously, their racist white-supremacy anti-black teachings are NOT the true Gospel recorded in the bible.  So their claim of being the restored one and only true church is a fraud.

If my interdenominational church, which doesn’t claim to be the one and only true church, discovers a doctrinal error, we simply acknowledge the error, correct the error, and move on.  We have no claim of being uniquely legitimate, so our emphasis is simply preaching the word instead of trying to protect the legitimacy of past claims, for there are no past claims to protect.

---

From my experience with cults and cultish behavior, here are some warning signs:

1)   any church that elevates itself as the sole embodiment of Christ, which is nothing more than making recognition of its leadership a requirement of salvation.
2)   any church that claims only it’s leadership can correctly interpret and teach scripture, which, again, is nothing more than making recognition of its leadership a requirement of salvation.
3)   any church that uses brain washing techniques such as “read our material and then pray to God if what we say is true”…or…”now, think for yourself, do you really believe God would have designed things that way?”….both of which are nothing more than ways to dodge what the scripture actually says when doctrines run contrary or have no basis in scripture.  For if their teachings were scriptural, they could simply point to the bible instead of asking someone to either 1) pray in the context of their teachings, or 2) lean on one’s own imagination.

It’s been what, a week or two since I warned Tweed about “praying to God if such and such church is true”…and just yesterday, in walks BYU asking us to do that every thing.   Cults are as predictable as the sun rising in the East.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
King
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« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 02:03:24 pm »
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BYUmormon, please stay around posting if you can. We've had a lot of anti-Mormon bigotry in the past year and I think a Mormon poster would really be useful here.
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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2012, 08:25:08 pm »
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I don't know about that lol. Attacking someone's religion isn't something I prefer to do though. There are even some religions that get a pass from me due to political reasons.
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« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2012, 07:40:07 pm »
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BYUmormon, please stay around posting if you can. We've had a lot of anti-Mormon bigotry in the past year and I think a Mormon poster would really be useful here.

He's not the only Mormon poster anymore. Of course, I'm also probably more comfortable discussing my religion's shortcomings (while still being a true believer), so there's that.

As for Brigham Young... I believe he was a prophet, but also that he talked about waaaay too many things that are not doctrine, and should never have been treated as such. I mean, look at the black priesthood ban. Joseph Smith NEVER taught that; he in fact ordained several black priesthood holders, and in his presidential campaign expressed the idea that slavery should be phased out. So clearly, the black priesthood ban was never real doctrine.
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