The basis of Mormonism is no more illegitimate than the basis of any relgion

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At its core, it's no more or less ridiculous than Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.

the bible was written by dozens of people over many centuries - yet it is very deep and entirely cohesive.  Joseph Smith, on the other hand, is a testimony of a single person, yet his stuff is weak and doesn't mesh with the bible is MANY areas.

if you can't see that difference, then this thread is useless.

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if you can't see that difference, then this thread is useless.

I see grubby human fingerprints all over the Bible. I expect the Book of Mormon is the same.

define these "grubby human fingerprints"

also, the way the Book of Mormon was supposedly discovered and translated is NOT the same as the bible.  Plus, Joseph Smith's own teachings in many areas have been rejected by the LDS - even his so-called followers think he was full of beans.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You lot have just developed a very convoluted way of thinking to reconcile ''Thou shall not kill'' with all the slaughter that goes on in the Bible.

Dude, please:

Exo 20:13 “You shall not murder.”

Capital punishment: in the very next chapter of the same book:

Exo 21: 12 “Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.


Obviously, you don’t know the difference between to kill and to murder.

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Or thinking homosexuality is a sin even though Jesus never said anything about it

Jesus never said anything specific about bestiality either…so what, exactly is your point?  But he did speak in general terms about “sexual immorality” in the context of Jews who knew the OT…and he did define marriage as heterosexual…and he did define marriage as the proper place for sex…so that doesn’t leave much room for either bestiality or homosexuality.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You should sincerely pray to god asking him if the church is true...

there it is, the brainwashing, again...

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

BYUmormon,

since you are asking me to pray to God if your church is true, what did God tell you in regard to the following?...

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Brigham Young: Death to inter-racial couples:

“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110)

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Cain was an associate of Lucifer and is the Father of the Negros.

“Though he was a rebel and AN ASSOCIATE OF LUCIFER IN PRE-EXISTENCE, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, CAIN MANAGED TO ATTAIN THE PRIVILEGE OF MORTAL BIRTH. Under Adam's tutelage, he began in this life to serve God....he came out in open rebellion, fought God, worshiped Lucifer, and slew Abel.... “As a result of his rebellion, CAIN WAS CURSED WITH A DARK SKIN; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who ARE NOT WORTHY to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition. As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to RULE over SATAN.”(Mormon Doctrine, p. 102)

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The Mormon prophet Brigham Young on the appearence of Africans:

“Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291)

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Besides a black skin, Africans have a black heart, according to Mormon publication Times and Seasons, edited by future prophet John Taylor:

“The descendants of Ham, besides A BLACK SKIN which has ever been a curse that has followed an apostate of the holy priesthood, as well as a BLACK HEART, have been servants to both Shem and Japheth, and the ABOLITIONISTS ARE TRYING TO MAKE VOID THE CURSE OF GOD, BUT IT WILL REQUIRE MORE POWER THAN MAN POSSESSES TO COUNTERACT THE DECREES OF ETERNAL WISDOM.”
(Times and Seasons, Vol. 6, page 857)

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“Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness HE BECAME THE FATHER OF AN INFERIOR RACE.”
(The Way to Perfection, page 101)

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“There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with OTHER DISADVANTAGES, while another is BORN WHITE with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there.”
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, page 61)

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“NEGROES IN THIS LIFE ARE DENIED THE PRIESTHOOD; under NO circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation IS NOT CARRIED AFFIRMATIVELY TO THEM... “NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES WHERE THE RECEIPT OF CERTAIN SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS ARE CONCERNED...” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p. 477)

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They didn't know better back then.

you mean the founders of the LDS, who God supposedly used to restore His one true church, claimed revelation from God, which God, obviously, did NOT give them?!

I'm shocked...shocked, I tell you!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

jmf, there were plenty of non-Mormon Christian sects (sect isn't even the right word - the Christian establishment in a vast part of the country) that echoed in their own way the sentiments expressed by Brigham Young and others on blacks, at times not even without a cosmological/theological addendum to it (blacks descended from a separate black Adam, etc).

well, sure, there are doctrinal errors in most, if not all, Christian churches...but the Mormons weren't claiming to be just another Christian church, rather they are claiming to be the ONLY true Christian church who restored THE true Gospel to the world.

Obviously, their racist white-supremacy anti-black teachings are NOT the true Gospel recorded in the bible.  So their claim of being the restored one and only true church is a fraud.

If my interdenominational church, which doesn’t claim to be the one and only true church, discovers a doctrinal error, we simply acknowledge the error, correct the error, and move on.  We have no claim of being uniquely legitimate, so our emphasis is simply preaching the word instead of trying to protect the legitimacy of past claims, for there are no past claims to protect.

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From my experience with cults and cultish behavior, here are some warning signs:

1)   any church that elevates itself as the sole embodiment of Christ, which is nothing more than making recognition of its leadership a requirement of salvation.
2)   any church that claims only it’s leadership can correctly interpret and teach scripture, which, again, is nothing more than making recognition of its leadership a requirement of salvation.
3)   any church that uses brain washing techniques such as “read our material and then pray to God if what we say is true”…or…”now, think for yourself, do you really believe God would have designed things that way?”….both of which are nothing more than ways to dodge what the scripture actually says when doctrines run contrary or have no basis in scripture.  For if their teachings were scriptural, they could simply point to the bible instead of asking someone to either 1) pray in the context of their teachings, or 2) lean on one’s own imagination.

It’s been what, a week or two since I warned Tweed about “praying to God if such and such church is true”…and just yesterday, in walks BYU asking us to do that every thing.   Cults are as predictable as the sun rising in the East.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

To be fair, Mormonism does address a perceived problem with standard Christian doctrine that arose because of the discovery of the Americas.  If Christ is sole path to salvation, how could a just god condemn the residents of the Americas for fifteen centuries to eternal damnation because it was impossible for them to receive his message. It does so by inventing a tale of Christ himself delivering his message to the ancient peoples of the Americas, and it addresses the problem more generally through its doctrine of baptism of the dead.

why does the world have a problem with God having the right to have mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy?

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Because it's quite obvious to any person who doesn't have a severely warped moral compass that condemning someone to eternal torment based on their ignorance of a religion they've never heard of is monstrously evil.

of course, you are distorting what the bible actually says about the Judgment - it does NOT condemn anyone for lack of faith or knowledge, rather it condemns on account of sin and declares everyone a sinner.  And it declares that it is NOT the hearers who will be declared righteous, but those who have received mercy and grace through the gift of faith which lead them to repentance.

so, knowledge of the Gospel apart from the gift of faith allowing one to come to Christ, is useless.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

So instead of condemning them because they don't have knowledge of the thing that would help them you're saying God consciously chooses not to help them when he's more than capable of doing so? I fail to see how that makes your deity any less monstrous.

Obliviously, you fail to see the irony in your attempt to condemn God for not helping them, while you yourself boldly proclaim to be an enemy to the Gospel and state that your purpose is to oppose those whom he has sent to spread the Gospel?