Germany wants to take control of the Greek budget ?!

[Tender Branson]

Germany has confirmed it drafted proposals to intervene directly in the Greek budget if it consistently fails to implement reforms.

European sources confirmed the plan yesterday, saying "several ideas are being discussed on how to react to a programme which is consistently off-track".

"If the Greeks aren’t able to succeed themselves with this, then there must be stronger leadership and monitoring from abroad, for example through the EU," said German economics minister Philip Rössler, the first member of chancellor Angela Merkel’s cabinet to confirm the proposal to appoint a "budget commissioner".

"We need more leadership and monitoring when it comes to implementing the reform course." Though the proposals would apply to all programme countries with a backed-up reform programme, the paper is focused on Greece as it struggles to cope with its €350 billion debt mountain.

Amid repeated failures to meet the terms of its current programme, agreed with EU partners, Athens is currently negotiating a second €130 billion package and a debt restructuring plan with its private creditors.

The German plan, leaked to the Financial Times , says that, "given the disappointing compliance so far, Greece has to accept shifting budgetary sovereignty to the European level for a certain period of time."

European officials say a central problem is Greece's decentralised budget structure, which makes it "near-impossible for Athens to exercise fiscal discipline".

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0129/breaking1.html?via=rel

[President Marokai]

Stuff like this is why my view on the EU has cooled considerably in the last year or two.

[Tender Branson]

While they are at it, they can manage the Carinthian budget too if they want to ...

[Gustaf]

Anyone who claims the EU is a threat to national soverignty is a nationalist scare-mongerer who has read too may British tabloids /everyone about 5 years ago

[opebo]

would be ok if the german budget were also controlled by the EU.

[Insula Dei]

Anyone who claims the EU is a threat to national soverignty is a nationalist scare-mongerer who has read too may British tabloids /everyone about 5 years ago

Well, clearly the threat here is Germany, rather than the EU. The real story of the crisis is one of Germany and France behaving as if the union is just an extension of their own national sovereignty. Merkozy is the thing you ought to be railing against Gustaf, not the European Institutions, which are too weak to act on their own.

[Beet]

While this is a very bad idea, one has a great deal of sympathy for the German position. They deprived themselves the most, and are opening their pockets for other countries, and still get attacked.

The problem is not this country, or that country, it's a faulty conception of economics that says austerity and other contractionary measures will lead to growth.

[I left.]

Haven't I suggested Germans and Austrians run budgets in the EU before?

[Tender Branson]

Haven't I suggested Germans and Austrians run budgets in the EU before?

Why should we Austrians run it ? We have other stuff to do. Let the Luxembourgers or the Finns do it, or outsource it to the Swiss ...

[True Federalist]

Aren't options 1 and 2 essentially the same?  After all, given the current situation, EU control would only be a fig-leaf for German control.

[Vasall des Midas]

Control by the Merkel regime is hardly the same thing as German control.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

The EU is the reason why austeritymania is out of control.

[Jerseyrules]

My opinion: the Germans and Brits have pulled all the weight in the EU from Day 1, and Germany is pulling all the weight in the euro.  If Germnay pulled out, the whole system would collapse like a house of cards (as it should.) 


Call me old-fashioned, but Merkel should grow a pair...wait, did I type that out loud, or were we all thinking it?

[Gustaf]

Anyone who claims the EU is a threat to national soverignty is a nationalist scare-mongerer who has read too may British tabloids /everyone about 5 years ago

Well, clearly the threat here is Germany, rather than the EU. The real story of the crisis is one of Germany and France behaving as if the union is just an extension of their own national sovereignty. Merkozy is the thing you ought to be railing against Gustaf, not the European Institutions, which are too weak to act on their own.

They couldn't do this without the EU (and they wouldn't because there would be no reason). I prefer to deal in realities of what the EU actually is rather than in ideals of what it would be in my fantasy-land.

[Vasall des Midas]

My opinion: the Germans and Brits have pulled all the weight in the EU from Day 1

Someone doesn't know sh!t about the postwar history of Europe...

[Insula Dei]

Anyone who claims the EU is a threat to national soverignty is a nationalist scare-mongerer who has read too may British tabloids /everyone about 5 years ago

Well, clearly the threat here is Germany, rather than the EU. The real story of the crisis is one of Germany and France behaving as if the union is just an extension of their own national sovereignty. Merkozy is the thing you ought to be railing against Gustaf, not the European Institutions, which are too weak to act on their own.

They couldn't do this without the EU (and they wouldn't because there would be no reason). I prefer to deal in realities of what the EU actually is rather than in ideals of what it would be in my fantasy-land.

Trying to look at what goes wrong and from there formulating goals for the future (i.e. strengthenin' the common institution at the expense of the influence of the larger member states) isn't constructing a fantasy land.

[Gustaf]

Anyone who claims the EU is a threat to national soverignty is a nationalist scare-mongerer who has read too may British tabloids /everyone about 5 years ago

Well, clearly the threat here is Germany, rather than the EU. The real story of the crisis is one of Germany and France behaving as if the union is just an extension of their own national sovereignty. Merkozy is the thing you ought to be railing against Gustaf, not the European Institutions, which are too weak to act on their own.

They couldn't do this without the EU (and they wouldn't because there would be no reason). I prefer to deal in realities of what the EU actually is rather than in ideals of what it would be in my fantasy-land.

Trying to look at what goes wrong and from there formulating goals for the future (i.e. strengthenin' the common institution at the expense of the influence of the larger member states) isn't constructing a fantasy land.

But the EU, as it is, is this. It's not as if there is another EU out there where France and Germany do not call the shots. Nor is such an entity particularly feasible.

And as I said, the reason why they want to control Greece's budget is because of the euro. Otherwise this wouldn't even be an issue. Trying to pretend as if this is unrelated to the EU and would not happen if there was more EU is...well. I'm not sure what to call it.

[© Tweed the Younger]

The problem is not this country, or that country, it's a faulty conception of economics that says austerity and other contractionary measures will lead to growth.

this 'conception of economics' didn't emerge in a vacuum.  it dates back to the 70s, when the precedent was set in these situations to privilege creditors over citizens in cases of excessive sovereign debt.  and it continues to today.  the austerity policies are backed by finance capital (and their shill media) with the intent of keeping inflation near zero at all costs, as to not deflate the value of their interest payments.

[Vasall des Midas]

The problem is not this country, or that country, it's a faulty conception of economics that says austerity and other contractionary measures will lead to growth.

this 'conception of economics' didn't emerge in a vacuum.  it dates back to the 70s, when the precedent was set in these situations to privilege creditors over citizens in cases of excessive sovereign debt.  and it continues to today.  the austerity policies are backed by finance capital (and their shill media) with the intent of keeping inflation near zero at all costs, as to not deflate the value of their interest payments.

This.

[Sibboleth]

My opinion: the Germans and Brits have pulled all the weight in the EU from Day 1

Someone doesn't know sh!t about the postwar history of Europe...

Oh wow.

[Insula Dei]

Anyone who claims the EU is a threat to national soverignty is a nationalist scare-mongerer who has read too may British tabloids /everyone about 5 years ago

Well, clearly the threat here is Germany, rather than the EU. The real story of the crisis is one of Germany and France behaving as if the union is just an extension of their own national sovereignty. Merkozy is the thing you ought to be railing against Gustaf, not the European Institutions, which are too weak to act on their own.

They couldn't do this without the EU (and they wouldn't because there would be no reason). I prefer to deal in realities of what the EU actually is rather than in ideals of what it would be in my fantasy-land.

Trying to look at what goes wrong and from there formulating goals for the future (i.e. strengthenin' the common institution at the expense of the influence of the larger member states) isn't constructing a fantasy land.

But the EU, as it is, is this. It's not as if there is another EU out there where France and Germany do not call the shots. Nor is such an entity particularly feasible.

The US, as it is, is as it is now. It's not as if there's some US out there that doesn't run massive deficits, assures all of its citizens affordable healthcaren and has outlawed the death penalty. Nor is such an entity entirely feasible. It'd be better if we just disbanded the US.

I really don't get what point you're trying to make. I'm not claiming the EU isn't what it is, I'm claiming it has the possibility to be so much more than it is, which is the fundamental aspiration of all politics. (Except maybe for the reactionary variant).

[Gustaf]

Anyone who claims the EU is a threat to national soverignty is a nationalist scare-mongerer who has read too may British tabloids /everyone about 5 years ago

Well, clearly the threat here is Germany, rather than the EU. The real story of the crisis is one of Germany and France behaving as if the union is just an extension of their own national sovereignty. Merkozy is the thing you ought to be railing against Gustaf, not the European Institutions, which are too weak to act on their own.

They couldn't do this without the EU (and they wouldn't because there would be no reason). I prefer to deal in realities of what the EU actually is rather than in ideals of what it would be in my fantasy-land.

Trying to look at what goes wrong and from there formulating goals for the future (i.e. strengthenin' the common institution at the expense of the influence of the larger member states) isn't constructing a fantasy land.

But the EU, as it is, is this. It's not as if there is another EU out there where France and Germany do not call the shots. Nor is such an entity particularly feasible.

The US, as it is, is as it is now. It's not as if there's some US out there that doesn't run massive deficits, assures all of its citizens affordable healthcaren and has outlawed the death penalty. Nor is such an entity entirely feasible. It'd be better if we just disbanded the US.

I really don't get what point you're trying to make. I'm not claiming the EU isn't what it is, I'm claiming it has the possibility to be so much more than it is, which is the fundamental aspiration of all politics. (Except maybe for the reactionary variant).

Eh, that's not a valid analogy. The US has outlawed the death penalty before, for example. Whereas the EU has never been democratic or functioning. Nor has it ever been a guarantor of Greek sovereignty.

[opebo]

The problem is not this country, or that country, it's a faulty conception of economics that says austerity and other contractionary measures will lead to growth.

this 'conception of economics' didn't emerge in a vacuum.  it dates back to the 70s, when the precedent was set in these situations to privilege creditors over citizens in cases of excessive sovereign debt.  and it continues to today.  the austerity policies are backed by finance capital (and their shill media) with the intent of keeping inflation near zero at all costs, as to not deflate the value of their interest payments.

Beautifully put, absolutely correct.

[Link]

The EU is the reason why austeritymania is out of control.

Wrong.

Austeritymania is something that has been preached by western first world countries to poor third world countries around the world for decades.  It was out of control a long time ago.  Asking public school teachers who retired at 50 to accept a reasonable pension and having wealthy Greeks with yachts actually pay some taxes is mild compared to what we asked third world countries to do.  I think Europeans and Americans bitching about paying taxes and accepting reasonable cuts is the height of arrogance and hypocrisy.

[dialectical fetishist]

Stuff like this is why my view on the EU has cooled considerably in the last year or two.

You finally saw sense?