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Question: What do you say ?
Yeah, let Germany manage the Greek budget   -6 (17.6%)
Yeah, let the EU manage the Greek budget   -8 (23.5%)
No   -20 (58.8%)
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Total Voters: 33

Author Topic: Germany wants to take control of the Greek budget ?!  (Read 3046 times)
Jerseyrules
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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2012, 01:55:18 am »
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My opinion: the Germans and Brits have pulled all the weight in the EU from Day 1

Someone doesn't know sh!t about the postwar history of Europe...

Alright, but in the last 20 years?  Come on.
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« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2012, 12:03:57 am »
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Why would anyone think that Germany is going to let the EU (which it basically runs along with France) throw infinite sums of money down the bottomless black hole that is Greece without any consequences? 

And since Greece has no way to get funding otherwise, what are its other options, default?  Of course, I support that option, but once we start down that road, lots of other things will start occurring. 

Of course, we're going down that road eventually anyways, and it's probably better to do it now than later, so...
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2012, 12:08:31 am »
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I do want to add one other thing - at this point, any Greek bailouts will primarily consist of funds going to European banks (i.e. a backdoor bailout), tending to be those of French origin, so I might urge the supposedly enlightened folks on this forum to come to an actual conclusion that doesn't involve unicorns or griffins with regard to this development.
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angus
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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2012, 11:39:29 am »
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Germany has confirmed it drafted proposals to intervene directly in the Greek budget if it consistently fails to implement reforms.

European sources confirmed the plan yesterday, saying "several ideas are being discussed on how to react to a programme which is consistently off-track".

"If the Greeks aren’t able to succeed themselves with this, then there must be stronger leadership and monitoring from abroad, for example through the EU," said German economics minister Philip Rössler, the first member of chancellor Angela Merkel’s cabinet to confirm the proposal to appoint a "budget commissioner".

"We need more leadership and monitoring when it comes to implementing the reform course." Though the proposals would apply to all programme countries with a backed-up reform programme, the paper is focused on Greece as it struggles to cope with its €350 billion debt mountain.

Amid repeated failures to meet the terms of its current programme, agreed with EU partners, Athens is currently negotiating a second €130 billion package and a debt restructuring plan with its private creditors.

The German plan, leaked to the Financial Times , says that, "given the disappointing compliance so far, Greece has to accept shifting budgetary sovereignty to the European level for a certain period of time."

European officials say a central problem is Greece's decentralised budget structure, which makes it "near-impossible for Athens to exercise fiscal discipline".

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0129/breaking1.html?via=rel

Germans like to take control of things.  Once in a while it spills over into military campaigns, but after two really big losses in the early 20th Century, the Germans figured out that their best bet for rule of the European continent was through its economic power.  But even here they have over-reached.  The German-controlled European currency unit is no more sustainable than an armed struggle against a Europe united against Germany. 

Of course, given its investment, Germany is right to want to control the Greek economy.  Greece would do well to simply opt out of the Eurozone altogether.  Germany could also offer some incentives to help Greece smooth its transition toward the Drachma.  The short-term consequences would be harsh for Greece, but in the long run both Greece and Germany would be better off. 

The Eurozone would probably be sustainable if limited to a few rich countries such as Germany, Austria, the Low Countries, and Scandanavia.  Maybe even throw in the Hanseatic city of Danzig.  And call it something other than the Eurozone.  How about "The Fourth Reich?" 
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Gustaf
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« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2012, 06:20:45 pm »
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Angus, it should be noted that Germany never wanted the euro. It was pushed on them against their will. They realized they would probably end up paying for it.
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« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2012, 07:55:30 pm »
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Whose going to take over our budget after more wreckless spending?
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« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2012, 08:59:51 pm »
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Whose going to take over our budget after more wreckless spending?

'Reckless' is the word you're looking for, young whipper-snapper, though the phrase 'woefully inadequate' would be more apropos.
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angus
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« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2012, 09:30:27 pm »
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Angus, it should be noted that Germany never wanted the euro. It was pushed on them against their will. They realized they would probably end up paying for it.

Noted and well-publicized.  No doubt, I remember well reading opinion polls at the time that 67% of the public was against it, yet the bundesstag passed it anyway.  Yes, the German people knew that they would end up paying for it.  I suspect that the German people, deep down, have always known that they'd end up paying for the grand ambitions of their late-unifying imperialist government.

I also remember a slate of articles, mostly emanating from the UK and the US, about how it was still possible for the Germans to defeat the european currency unit.  A handful of very rich Germans, with some help from a handful of very rich Americans and Englishmen, could defeat the euro by offering up a private currency, provided that the majority of Germans who protested the Euro could be persuaded to pressure their government to allow a second (private) currency to compete with the Euro.  The idea is that the private currency would become more greatly accepted in Germany, making its backers rich and eventually outpacing the Euro to the point where the Euro would fold, but because the Germans would have vested so much in the private currency by then, it could easily be exchanged for Neue Deutschemarks that they would not experience much loss (compared to what they would have lost by sticking with the Euro.)  A grand scheme, and one that never came to fruition.
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« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2012, 10:25:26 pm »
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Whose going to take over our budget after more wreckless spending?

No one. We have our own currency, so we will never be in the position of Greece.
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2012, 07:06:19 am »
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Angus, it should be noted that Germany never wanted the euro. It was pushed on them against their will. They realized they would probably end up paying for it.
Who exactly are you calling "Germany" here? Not our governing classes - the people who're using it right now to plunder everything of value in Greece in an unholy alliance with eurosceptic popular sentiment.
It's true that such sentiment about the currency ever existed, and polls never showed majority support for it. Though what would have happened with a referendum and a referendum campaign, no one can say for certain. Mostly because such things do not exist here.
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« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2012, 04:00:21 pm »
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Whose going to take over our budget after more wreckless spending?

No one. We have our own currency, so we will never be in the position of Greece.

more relevantly, we have the most potent system of organized violence ever known to man, which means universal annihilation would occur prior to the realization of T_W's fantasy.
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« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2012, 04:16:00 pm »
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Whose going to take over our budget after more wreckless spending?

No one. We have our own currency, so we will never be in the position of Greece.

more relevantly, we have the most potent system of organized violence ever known to man, which means universal annihilation would occur prior to the realization of T_W's fantasy.

Well that too, but I would like to believe the US would not use violence, event to prevent something like a financial crisis.
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« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2012, 04:17:49 pm »
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and I'd like to believe the Mets are the favorites to win the NL East in 2012.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2012, 05:44:07 pm »
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Angus, it should be noted that Germany never wanted the euro. It was pushed on them against their will. They realized they would probably end up paying for it.
Who exactly are you calling "Germany" here? Not our governing classes - the people who're using it right now to plunder everything of value in Greece in an unholy alliance with eurosceptic popular sentiment.
It's true that such sentiment about the currency ever existed, and polls never showed majority support for it. Though what would have happened with a referendum and a referendum campaign, no one can say for certain. Mostly because such things do not exist here.

From what I understand there was considerable skepticism among the German elites as well (although not as much) but they went along with it in exchange for German unification.
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angus
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« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2012, 09:09:42 pm »
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more relevantly, we have the most potent system of organized violence ever known to man

No, the Germans have us bested on that score as well.  

We like to think "We're Number One" in everything, but we're really not.  We're not even Number One in most things.  And fifty years from now, we probably won't be Number One in many things.

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« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2012, 09:23:19 pm »
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more relevantly, we have the most potent system of organized violence ever known to man

No, the Germans have us bested on that score as well.  

We like to think "We're Number One" in everything, but we're really not.  We're not even Number One in most things.  And fifty years from now, we probably won't be Number One in many things.



lol you're delusional dude.  assuming you're being serious.
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angus
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« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2012, 09:50:43 pm »
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lol you're delusional dude. assuming you're being serious.


Completely serious.

We need to start admitting that we're not as good at most things as we like to think we are.  Funny, it's not often the case that you have the need for a Republican to tell a non-Republican that.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2012, 09:54:45 pm »
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so Germany is better at organizing violence than the US.  I guess the use of the progressive tense could lead you to that in a useless fashion.
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angus
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« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2012, 10:17:49 pm »
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You talking about nuclear weapons?  It's an accident of history, man.  We're a country of immigrants.  Who do you think gave us those?  They were guys with names like Oppenheimer.  Sure, the US government financed it.  That's what burgeoning empires do.  What was the name of that Berkeley physicist who used to say, "I love Hitler.  He shakes the tree, and we pick up the apples."  I guess it was a joint US-German effort, in that sense.  

You can't seriously think our method of organized violence--impressive though it is--compares with what the Germans have invented.  They're streamlined, man, and awesome (and I use the word in its true sense.)  They have sustained war on the rest of Europe for many years, twice in the past century, and going back five hundred years we see their technology at work on even a greater scale.  

There are also the individual cases.  Take nobel laurate Fritz Haber.  We usually remember him as the guy who invented a way to make ammonia in bulk, and therefore make fertilizer to feed the starving masses.  But he also gave us the munitions.  After all, ammonium nitrate isn't just for feeding vegetable plants.  He also invented the law CxT=k that allowed them to figure out how to gas people in the trenches in World War I.  His wife was so distraught over this that she committed suicide after he told her, "Death is death, baby."  Haber went on to invent some pretty nifty insecticides.  In his later years, he was director of the very, very prestigious Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Physical Chemistry.  At some point, in about 1934, he was ordered to fire about half of his staff.  He got a list of men who were suspected or known Communists, Jews, members of the SDP, etc.  You know, the usual riff-raff.  These were tenured professors and well-respected friends of his.  He refused to do it, and chose to resign his own position  instead (and his pension in the process.)  He died six months later, a broken-hearted, impoverished, lonely man.  Ah, but his legacy lived on:  not only did he give the world a wonderful insecticide, known to us now as Zyklon B, but the equation with which engineers delivered it most effectively (vide supra.)

And Fritz Haber is one of but many examples we could name.  Germans are smart, man.  Never forget that.  Volkswagen, Bayer, I. G. Farben, BASF.  You name it, they can make it.

We, on the other hand, hold our troops up to ridicule.  A few rowdy privates take a piss on a statue of Mohammed and what do we do?  We court-martial them.  We observe those pesky Geneva conventions.  No wonder we're losing wars.  Do you think Hermann Goring would do that?  You can't conquer lesser races by pretending equality with them.  The Germans have always understood this.

Let us not distract ourselves by hijacking the thread.  This is a huge digression in an otherwise wonderful thread.  Go buy yourself some history books and educate yourself, man.  Let's not take a big dump on this thread just to fill in the gaps in your education.

Take it back to the issue:  should the Germans take over the Greek budget?  I say that they shouldn't have gotten in bed with the Greeks in the first place.  (And it's not too late for a divorce.)
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2012, 10:25:04 pm »
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I guess that's simply an 'angus post' that there's no serious benefit in trying to respond to.
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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2012, 06:34:12 am »
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Angus, it should be noted that Germany never wanted the euro. It was pushed on them against their will. They realized they would probably end up paying for it.
Who exactly are you calling "Germany" here? Not our governing classes - the people who're using it right now to plunder everything of value in Greece in an unholy alliance with eurosceptic popular sentiment.
It's true that such sentiment about the currency ever existed, and polls never showed majority support for it. Though what would have happened with a referendum and a referendum campaign, no one can say for certain. Mostly because such things do not exist here.

From what I understand there was considerable skepticism among the German elites as well (although not as much) but they went along with it in exchange for German unification.
Lol no. Unification and the Euro have nothing whatsoever to do with each other except being invented (in part) by the same people. First the one, then the other. Theo Waigel conquers the world.
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« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2012, 06:53:48 am »
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angus, regarding your claims about the German military - you're much overstating the case, and in after all it is merely a historical case - Tweed was not wrong in claiming that right now, the US is enormously stronger than any other State. The greatest fascist/military power in human history by far is the one you call home - the Germans a mere also-ran, the Japanese a mere footnote, and the Chinese nothing more than a fanciful idea.

Leaving aside the fact Tweed was talking about the present, not ancient history, let me address the historical issue as well - not only was the US enormously more productive of military power than Germany during the second world war, it wasn't even the US that defeated them - it was Russia.  So, case closed - can't even beat Russia.

And don't worry to much about the old superpower in 50 years time  - reports of its decline are as always much exaggerated (after all speculation about radical change makes a better story than 'US will continue to be the central power in the world for the foreseeable future).
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angus
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« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2012, 01:15:36 pm »
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And don't worry to much about the old superpower in 50 years time  - reports of its decline are as always much exaggerated (after all speculation about radical change makes a better story than 'US will continue to be the central power in the world for the foreseeable future).

That much we can agree on.  In my lifetime, the United States' share of the world GDP has fallen from about 50% to about 20%.  The average male height in the US has gone from being the tallest to being the 17th tallest.  And there are a number of other indicators.

I also agree that no single power is poised to supplant us.  In 50 years, we will be in a period not unlike the early 1800s when no single nation dominated the others but that there are many states vying for power.  Some dying empires and some emerging ones, all itching for a fight.
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« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2012, 05:15:58 pm »
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The average male height in the US has gone from being the tallest to being the 17th tallest.  And there are a number of other indicators.

Well, you know that impoverishing the vast majority is policy, angus - thus their shrinking stature.

All the countries that are taller on average than the US are Western Europeans who are simply more socialist and therefore in better overall condition.  Height is most likely a counter-indicator to power.
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« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2012, 05:32:44 pm »
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We observe those pesky Geneva conventions.  No wonder we're losing wars.  

The US observes the Geneva conventions? Since when?
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