Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 02, 2014, 09:18:32 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Please delete your old personal messages.

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  Atlas Fantasy Elections
| |-+  Atlas Fantasy Government (Moderators: Gustaf, MasterJedi)
| | |-+  Anti-Conscription Amendment [Rejected]
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 Print
Author Topic: Anti-Conscription Amendment [Rejected]  (Read 5719 times)
Marokai Besieged
Marokai Blue
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16725
United States


View Profile
« on: January 31, 2012, 08:05:43 am »
Ignore

Quote
Anti-Conscription Amendment

Article VI, Section VIII of The Atlasian Constitution is amended to read:
Neither shall the Republic of Atlasia nor any of its constituent regions enforce compulsory conscription upon any citizen.



(Slot: PPT's Discretion)

Sponsor: Napoleon Scott
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 02:49:08 am by Mad Marokai, PPT »Logged

GM Napoleon
Napoleon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15413


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2012, 01:39:19 pm »
Ignore

Introduced this with a shred of hope that this Senate doesn't embarrass itself by the time it reaches the people.
Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Governor TJ
TJ in Cleve
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4852
United States


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2012, 01:49:09 pm »
Ignore

I will vote against this unless it includes an exception for a direct attack on Atlasian soil, and the conscription to be done by the federal government and not be regions because regional conscription for a federal army makes no sense.

I propose the following amendment:

Quote
Anti-Conscription Amendment

The Republic of Atlasia shall not conscript or enforce conscription of any citizen unless there is a direct attack on Atlasian soil by legitimate foreign governments. In the event of such an attack, conscription must only be used on citizens at least eighteen years of age, and must allow exemptions for conscientious objectors, the infirm or otherwise disabled, those already enrolled in a higher education institution at the time conscription begins, or heads of single parent households.
Logged

GM Napoleon
Napoleon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15413


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 01:52:40 pm »
Ignore

The anti-life amendment is unfriendly, of course.
Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
R2D2
20RP12
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22203
Germany


Political Matrix
E: -7.94, S: -8.09

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 06:01:33 pm »
Ignore

I oppose conscription 100%. Period.
Logged


Also, it's so R-Money to unabashedly ruin a thousand dollar suit with ice water and laugh about it.
Marokai Besieged
Marokai Blue
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16725
United States


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 06:10:07 pm »
Ignore

We're now voting on the following amendment, as Napoleon has objected. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

Quote
Anti-Conscription Amendment

The Republic of Atlasia shall not conscript or enforce conscription of any citizen unless there is a direct attack on Atlasian soil by legitimate foreign governments. In the event of such an attack, conscription must only be used on citizens at least eighteen years of age, and must allow exemptions for conscientious objectors, the infirm or otherwise disabled, those already enrolled in a higher education institution at the time conscription begins, or heads of single parent households.



Nay.
Logged

R2D2
20RP12
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22203
Germany


Political Matrix
E: -7.94, S: -8.09

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2012, 06:20:45 pm »
Ignore

NAY
Logged


Also, it's so R-Money to unabashedly ruin a thousand dollar suit with ice water and laugh about it.
GM Napoleon
Napoleon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15413


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 06:21:27 pm »
Ignore

Nay
Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Governor TJ
TJ in Cleve
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4852
United States


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 07:21:05 pm »
Ignore

Aye

So, let me get this straight, if the nation was being invaded, you would still oppose using to conscription to defend it? If that were to actually happen somehow, it doesn't look like our government would last too long...
Logged

GM Napoleon
Napoleon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15413


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2012, 07:22:25 pm »
Ignore

Aye

So, let me get this straight, if the nation was being invaded, you would still oppose using to conscription to defend it? If that were to actually happen somehow, it doesn't look like our government would last too long...

If no one wants to defend the nation, then we deserve to get beat.
Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
R2D2
20RP12
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22203
Germany


Political Matrix
E: -7.94, S: -8.09

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2012, 07:57:27 pm »
Ignore

Aye

So, let me get this straight, if the nation was being invaded, you would still oppose using to conscription to defend it? If that were to actually happen somehow, it doesn't look like our government would last too long...

If no one wants to defend the nation, then we deserve to get beat.

^^^^^ yesyesyes this.
Logged


Also, it's so R-Money to unabashedly ruin a thousand dollar suit with ice water and laugh about it.
Snowguy716
snowguy716
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16926
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -5.81, S: -8.52

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2012, 04:18:59 am »
Ignore

Why do I have this incredible sense of deja vu at the moment? 
Logged

"Above and beyond the question of how to grow the economy there is a legitimate concern about how to grow the quality of our lives."
-Paul Wellstone


Minnesota Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party
Junkie
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 803
United States


Political Matrix
E: 1.68, S: -4.35

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2012, 05:47:00 pm »
Ignore

Introduced this with a shred of hope that this Senate doesn't embarrass itself by the time it reaches the people.

I am not sure that I understand this comment.  If you are stating that opposing this amendment is an embarrassment, and I assume you mean intellectually embarrassing, then I guess I am willing to accept the embarrassment.  Here is why I am against the proposed constitutional amendment:

Starting off with an aside.  Currently reading a book about the demise of moderate/progressive republicans from 1960-1980.  Amazingly good so far.  One point the book brings out is that in 1967, the Ripon Society (mainly moderates at the time) wrote a book calling for the end of the draft.  Its basis was the deteriorating effect it had on the military in combat units.  They found common ground with the Young Americans for Freedom (mainly conservatives and libertarians) who believed that conscription is a form of slavery.

They were pitted against Democrats, the most vocal of which was Teddy Kennedy, who believed that a fully volunteer army (especially in a time of war) would result in only the most uneducated, poorest citizens with a disproportionate amount of minorities being in the service. 

I see validity in all the arguments, although, I would point out that since then the volunteer army has not become what Kennedy feared.  In fact, it appears that we have created a seperate society of military members, who all have family members who serve, while the proportion of non-service members that have a serving relative has gone way down.  In effect, the military is becoming increasingly disconnected from the people they serve to protect.  Not really a good thing.

However, my concern is that conscription in time of war will be necessary.  We should not have a peacetime draft, but in times of declared war, with Senate approval, conscription should be allowed.

Thus as to the amendment:

Aye
Logged
GM Napoleon
Napoleon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15413


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2012, 05:56:56 pm »
Ignore

The comment was regarding what I consider to be one of the most embarrassing and flat out stupid time-wasting votes as a Senate that would have easily passed a normal anti-conscription amendment compromised with itself for no reason at all and forwarded a hideous mess for a popular vote that went down in flames. That was part of a string of poorly worded failed amendments where I managed to position myself as the lone voice of reason! Wink
Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Warner for Senate '14
benconstine
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 30559
United States


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2012, 06:38:41 pm »
Ignore

I urge the Senate to defeat the Amendment.  Conscription is not pretty, nor do I support it, but it is a tool that we should have, if the need arises.
Logged

Obama High's debate team:

"Now let me be clear...I...I...um...uh...now let me be clear.  I strongly condemn the affirmative in the strongest possible terms, and I am closely monitoring their arguments.  Let me be clear on this."
Senator-elect Polnut
polnut
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13148
Australia


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2012, 06:53:28 pm »
Ignore

I obviously don't support a peacetime draft - but to put it in the Constitution means that's kind of it. I understand the 'issues' people have with conscription and generally I'm a very strong opponent in general of it... however

It should be an option, for example, if the nation itself is under direct attack by the armed forces of another sovereign state.

So, I do support the amendment

AYE.
Logged


Dogma is a comfortable thing, it saves you from thought - Sir Robert Menzies
Junkie
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 803
United States


Political Matrix
E: 1.68, S: -4.35

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2012, 08:13:15 pm »
Ignore

Damn glad your here polnut.  We may not agree on everything, but I value your contributions.
Logged
Carlos Danger
wormyguy
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8404
Liechtenstein


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2012, 08:55:30 pm »
Ignore

I urge the Senate to defeat the Amendment.  Conscription is not pretty, nor do I support it, but it is a tool that we should have, if the need arises.

You first.
Logged

Marokai Besieged
Marokai Blue
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16725
United States


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2012, 09:00:19 pm »
Ignore

I change my vote on the amendment to Aye.
Logged

R2D2
20RP12
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22203
Germany


Political Matrix
E: -7.94, S: -8.09

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2012, 09:13:56 pm »
Ignore

Senators, think for a moment about what exactly is currently being debated...a bill that forces citizens into military service. That's outrageous. There is no excuse for the Federal Government to force any citizen to do anything, it's immoral. The Government is supposed to protect us, not the other way around. Therefore, unless we strongly reconsider what we are doing, I propose the following amendment:

Quote
Anti-Conscription Amendment

The Republic of Atlasia shall not conscript or enforce conscription of any citizen unless there is a direct attack on Atlasian soil by legitimate foreign governments. In the event of such an attack, The President, Vice President, all Cabinet members and all Senators shall be the first citizens required to serve. After all of the above are conscripted, the Government then shall require members of local Governments to serve next.

Of course I don't intend for this amendment to be voted on or actually taken seriously, but think about it. If we are going to force our own citizens into military service, our asses are first.
Logged


Also, it's so R-Money to unabashedly ruin a thousand dollar suit with ice water and laugh about it.
Marokai Besieged
Marokai Blue
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 16725
United States


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2012, 09:16:02 pm »
Ignore

I change my vote on the amendment to Aye.

Grr.. The way TJ's amendment is worded isn't exactly what I would like. I hate doing this, but change my vote to Abstain. Attack on our soil could be interpreted to mean many things.
Logged

Senator-elect Polnut
polnut
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13148
Australia


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2012, 09:24:45 pm »
Ignore



I change my vote on the amendment to Aye.

Grr.. The way TJ's amendment is worded isn't exactly what I would like. I hate doing this, but change my vote to Abstain. Attack on our soil could be interpreted to mean many things.

Hmmm, I'm re-reading it too... the term is too broad.

I would support an amendment which is clearly specific and states an attack by the armed forces of another sovereign state on the Atlasian mainland. But also safeguards such as minimum proportion of the armed forces that can be conscripted and also specify their roles.

But to completely remove the option for the most extreme of circumstances is honestly a little too emotional and its not like people are going to be immediately rounded up and shipped off to some manufactured war.

If you make the conditions incredibly strict... I still have an issue with conscription but I don't believe a total ban belongs in the Constitution.
Logged


Dogma is a comfortable thing, it saves you from thought - Sir Robert Menzies
Warner for Senate '14
benconstine
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 30559
United States


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2012, 10:03:40 pm »
Ignore

You first.

Absurd.  I'm not advocating a Draft; I'm saying it shouldn't be abolished.  The idea that a government official can't hold this position without joining themselves is specious reasoning.
Logged

Obama High's debate team:

"Now let me be clear...I...I...um...uh...now let me be clear.  I strongly condemn the affirmative in the strongest possible terms, and I am closely monitoring their arguments.  Let me be clear on this."
R2D2
20RP12
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 22203
Germany


Political Matrix
E: -7.94, S: -8.09

View Profile
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2012, 06:06:51 am »
Ignore

You first.

Absurd.  I'm not advocating a Draft; I'm saying it shouldn't be abolished.  The idea that a government official can't hold this position without joining themselves is specious reasoning.

Absolutely not. If we are to strip liberty, we ought to be the first to be stripped.
Logged


Also, it's so R-Money to unabashedly ruin a thousand dollar suit with ice water and laugh about it.
Senator-elect Polnut
polnut
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 13148
Australia


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2012, 06:57:35 am »
Ignore

You first.

Absurd.  I'm not advocating a Draft; I'm saying it shouldn't be abolished.  The idea that a government official can't hold this position without joining themselves is specious reasoning.

Absolutely not. If we are to strip liberty, we ought to be the first to be stripped.

Again... being a touch melodramatic there me thinks...
Logged


Dogma is a comfortable thing, it saves you from thought - Sir Robert Menzies
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines