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Author Topic: Anti-Conscription Amendment [Rejected]  (Read 5810 times)
Napoleon
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« Reply #100 on: February 22, 2012, 04:21:01 am »
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Senator, no doubt I respect your view. In fact, I agree with it!

I don't believe a constitution is the place for such things - I believe that there are three purposes for a constitution - 1. to determine how the government is run, 2. to enumerate the rights, powers and responsibilities of the federal and regional governments and individuals


This is exactly what this constitutional amendment will do. We are enumerating the rights of people not to be forced into labor, which is what conscription is: forced labor. Unfortunately, without this Constitutional amendment, we can not be sure that these rights aren't trampled on by future Senates.

I believe a legislative instrument is appropriate, a Constitutional amendment is a melodramatic step, one that I see as unnecessary in practice.

A Constitutional amendment is the only way to guarantee the right that a citizen not be conscripted and forced into military servitude. A legislative proposal can be removed just as easily as it was put in to place: if this Senate believes that conscription is okay, that is this Senate's own moral failing, but I  know a Constitutional amendment protecting the right for citizens to help defend this nation in a way one decides for his or herself is the only way to make certain that it will be protected later on, by future Senates who may not be so wise. We should do this here, and now, and let history judge us for it. I promise you won't be disappointed.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 04:28:44 am by Napoleon »Logged

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« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2012, 04:29:32 am »
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If it passes, I will be disappointed, but I owe the people the right to vote on it.

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« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2012, 07:45:33 pm »
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This movie is one that never gets better with age and repitition. Roll Eyes


I think that this idea that all the wars that we now fight or will ever fight are the equivalent of a "private expedition" undertaken for the profit of some group or interest, is ridiculous. I tend to still beleive that if we go to war, it is for the absolute necessity to protect the country and preserve it's freedom and safety. If that is not the case, then that should be threshold.

This post-George W. Bush thought process amongst liberals and libertarians that is borderline conspiratorial, if not outright conspiracy mongering, should be completely rejected. This idea of chickenhawks engaging in wars to acheive some benefit and sending others to do the dirty work, may make for good rhetoric during an unpopular war, but it is completely out of place and out of touch with reality when it comes to making foreign policy decisions. The leaders of a country have to make decisions for the good of the country. They aren't perfect and they make mistakes, but they are doing it for the country and those who serve are serving the country and it's interests. The troops aren't fighting for the politicians, they are fighting for everyone in the country. By making this a constitutional amendment, we are saying that never, ever will the need arise to actually go to war to defend the country from an attack. That Atlasia's superiority will never be in a position to be challenged and thus the need for use of force will never arise. Anyone with a good historical perspective, can note the folly of such thinking.
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« Reply #103 on: February 22, 2012, 07:56:44 pm »
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Uh, who are you talking to? The voices in your head? I haven't made any conspiracy suggestions at all.


Wars must not be fought using slave labor. Exactly what is worth fighting for if our constitution cannot even guarantee us the most basic of human rights? What is so important that we cannot allow volunteers to do, and we instead have to force those unwilling to do it out to be killed or injured?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 08:00:06 pm by Napoleon »Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
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I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #104 on: February 22, 2012, 09:25:49 pm »
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Are they any statistics suggesting that in a time of war, not enough Atlasians would be willing to fight in said war? Honest question.
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« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2012, 09:38:05 pm »
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Are they any statistics suggesting that in a time of war, not enough Atlasians would be willing to fight in said war? Honest question.

The problem is that when we talk about a constitutional amendment, it needs to consider not only all possibilities that could conceivably occur now but at any point in the future. A constitution needs to be well enough written that it can be applied beyond the scope of the vision of those doing the writing.
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« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2012, 09:41:15 pm »
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Are they any statistics suggesting that in a time of war, not enough Atlasians would be willing to fight in said war? Honest question.

The problem is that when we talk about a constitutional amendment, it needs to consider not only all possibilities that could conceivably occur now but at any point in the future. A constitution needs to be well enough written that it can be applied beyond the scope of the vision of those doing the writing.

Which is the best argument in favor of this amendment...
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I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2012, 10:33:15 pm »
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Uh, who are you talking to? The voices in your head? I haven't made any conspiracy suggestions at all.


Wars must not be fought using slave labor. Exactly what is worth fighting for if our constitution cannot even guarantee us the most basic of human rights? What is so important that we cannot allow volunteers to do, and we instead have to force those unwilling to do it out to be killed or injured?

You should consider refraining from insulting people unnecessarily. It only serves to hamper your efforts.

Your rhetoric about "politicians sending other people to go off and fight their wars for them" is conspiratorial. It assumes all wars are like Iraq and that such wars are more then mere mistakes in judgement but are instead conscious decisions to go to war for personal gain or whatever.

What is so important? The answer is freedom obviously and the practicialities necessitated by the conflict in question that is waged for the preservation of that. Wars can be unpredictable and when they get long and difficult, the public support wans and with it, enlistments go down. In the Civil War, the value of the currency would fluctuate based on how the latest battle went. By 1863, casaulties were high and enlistments were down. The support for the war was low and most thought Lincoln would certainly loose in 1864 to an anti-war candidate. The draft was instituted to ensure the north had the manpower to win the war. They also began to let African Americans serve albeit in segregated regiments. Lincoln didn't know how the war would end and thus couldn't have predicted it would be benenficial. He did know that war was draining the available manpower and if not restored, the south could very well win. Should the south have won simply because the population of the north had gotten war weary? I don't think so. And just for comparision the hypocrtical confederacy did the same thing, only a year earlier. They new they would be ruling as a dictatorship during the war, so the people that rebelled allegedly to preserve state's rights didn't even empanel a Supreme Court.

In World War II, a large proporation of the Army were conscripts. Sure these people may have volunteered on their own, but they didn't and they didn't volunteer on their own premptively like some did to avoid being considered a "draftee", rather they waited for the draft boards to do the job. With Hitler having every able bodied man (and even woman at the end, breaking a promise he made in the 30's) put into uniform to fight, I think taking a more practical approach for sake of defeating that SOB would be worth it.
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« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2012, 10:35:07 pm »
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Are they any statistics suggesting that in a time of war, not enough Atlasians would be willing to fight in said war? Honest question.

The problem is that when we talk about a constitutional amendment, it needs to consider not only all possibilities that could conceivably occur now but at any point in the future. A constitution needs to be well enough written that it can be applied beyond the scope of the vision of those doing the writing.

Which is the best argument in favor of this amendment...

Only if your primarily objective is restricting the power of the gov't to wage a conflict in all circumstances, for all of time.
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« Reply #109 on: February 22, 2012, 11:29:33 pm »
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I have said nothing conspiratorial, and your suggestion that I have is highly insulting and disrespectful.

Are they any statistics suggesting that in a time of war, not enough Atlasians would be willing to fight in said war? Honest question.

The problem is that when we talk about a constitutional amendment, it needs to consider not only all possibilities that could conceivably occur now but at any point in the future. A constitution needs to be well enough written that it can be applied beyond the scope of the vision of those doing the writing.

Which is the best argument in favor of this amendment...

Only if your primarily objective is restricting the power of the gov't to wage a conflict in all circumstances, for all of time.

My primary objective is protecting the rights, and lives, of this nation's citizens. I could be far less concerned with the government's ability to utilize slave labor to exert force. I will leave that sort of freedom for governments like Hitler's, as you mention. I'm not in a hurry to stoop to Hitler's level.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 11:32:06 pm by Napoleon »Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #110 on: February 22, 2012, 11:46:35 pm »
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I have said nothing conspiratorial, and your suggestion that I have is highly insulting and disrespectful.

Are they any statistics suggesting that in a time of war, not enough Atlasians would be willing to fight in said war? Honest question.

The problem is that when we talk about a constitutional amendment, it needs to consider not only all possibilities that could conceivably occur now but at any point in the future. A constitution needs to be well enough written that it can be applied beyond the scope of the vision of those doing the writing.

Which is the best argument in favor of this amendment...

Only if your primarily objective is restricting the power of the gov't to wage a conflict in all circumstances, for all of time.

My primary objective is protecting the rights, and lives, of this nation's citizens. I could be far less concerned with the government's ability to utilize slave labor to exert force. I will leave that sort of freedom for governments like Hitler's, as you mention. I'm not in a hurry to stoop to Hitler's level.

After the discourse you treated me with earlier, I can say I don't give a damn, Napoleon. You called me crazy as a person, I just said your position was crazy.

And how are you protecting the freedom of your country, by letting a Hitler have numerical superority? Maybe even letting him win? If the enlistment numbers are inadequate and you are in a necessary conflict with a tyranical SOB, what do you do in that situation?

This amendment rests either on the naive belief that such will never, ever happen in the world again or that the preservation of long term freedom is not worthy of the short term sacrifice to bring it about.
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« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2012, 12:06:24 am »
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If you are going to make outrageous accusations about me, don't complain when I question your sources.

Your argument relies wholly on assumptions and hypothetical. It holds no weight and deserves less consideration. I cannot take seriously a point of view that suggests slave labor can be permitted "for the greater good".

I encourage someone with a spine to assume sponsorship.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2012, 08:07:47 pm »
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I never attacked anyone directly here, I never questioned anyone's judgement or sanity. The same can't be said of my distinguished former collegue. I criticized an opinion that it is held by several people, not the people themselves. I do have respect for them even if I disagree with the position. It is a shame that such a style hasn't been reciprocated in this thread.

That last post says it all, really. There is no room for disagreement here. If you disagree with the position as stated you aren't worthy of consideration. That isn't debate, that is a dicatorial, "my way or the high way" approach and it is frankly beneath this deliberative body. I hope the now Governor finds more happiness in an executive position, because that menality is completely incompatible with the legislative branch.

Not everyone views it as "slave labor". I view it as a reasonable measure to be taken as an absolute last resort option in an absolute emergency. Since that is the standard for use, the decision is between allowing that in such "hypothetical" situations, or to forbid it in all situations. Since this is the constitution we are dealing with, and not legislation, such "assumptions" and "worst case hypothericals", are very relevant because the constitution has a degree of permenence that can't be changed on a dime. By the time it could be amended, it could be too late. The Constitution has to, by design, take that which has been labled above as " holding no weight and deserving of less consideration" into account.
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« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2012, 08:15:23 pm »
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Basically, we have to make sure everyone serves, because enough isn't enough.
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« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2012, 08:18:54 pm »
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Slavery is slavery. In that sense, you're right. How could one disagree that slavery is, in fact, slavery?

It's also discrimination. Apparently, some lives are more valuable than others, at least when it comes to forced servitude on behalf of the very government that is supposed to protect their rights.

I don't support discrimination and I don't support slavery. You can be 100% confident that I do not support conscription. By the way, my friend, I did not call you crazy. That is an erroneous accusation. But I did, and still do, question your judgment, along with anyone else who thinks that slavery, however archaic the form, is, you know, "acceptable".
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 08:23:16 pm by Governor Napoleon »Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2012, 08:20:46 pm »
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Basically, we have to make sure everyone serves, because enough isn't enough.

I am not sure what you are getting at, but as I have said before, it would take a hell of lot to get me to vote vote to enact a draft. I despise it with all my being. But in a situation where it is that option or losing the country, we need to be able to choose that option, and pretty damn quick.

It is my opinion that we never should have renacted the draft after WWII. Especially after Korea when the conventional forces were being downsized and Nukes were dominating the military strategy.
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« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2012, 08:24:39 pm »
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Basically, we have to make sure everyone serves, because enough isn't enough.

I am not sure what you are getting at, but as I have said before, it would take a hell of lot to get me to vote vote to enact a draft. I despise it with all my being. But in a situation where it is that option or losing the country, we need to be able to choose that option, and pretty damn quick.

It is my opinion that we never should have renacted the draft after WWII. Especially after Korea when the conventional forces were being downsized and Nukes were dominating the military strategy.

Right, but I think you're failing to realize that the draft will never need to be a last ditch effort because we will always have plenty of volunteers willing to serve.
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« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2012, 08:30:49 pm »
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Slavery is slavery. In that sense, you're right. How could one disagree that slavery is, in fact, slavery?

It's also discrimination. Apparently, some lives are more valuable than others, at least when it comes to forced servitude on behalf of the very government that is supposed to protect their rights.

I don't support discrimination and I don't support slavery. You can be 100% confident that I do not support conscription. By the way, my friend, I did not call you crazy. That is an erroneous accusation.

I don't believe in absolutes when it comes the bare practicalities necessited in a potential conflict that would determine the fate of the country, and yes the freedoms it enjoys.

In WWII, you had congresspeople serving in combat while holding their seats like Henry Cabot Lodge Jr. FDR ordered them to come back or resign in 1942. HCL Jr and I beleive most of the others choose to resign and serve the country in it's hour of need. In the Civil War, they organized a battalion of congressmen and staffers to defend the capitol from being overun before the volunteers could arrive to defend Washington, in 1861. There are probably examples of sitting members, fighting in combat in the Civil War as well. THe idea of the government being composed of cowardly chickenhawks who send other people to die for them, is historically innaccurate, especially during the very crisis which I am describing that needs to be considered. It especially ignores the fact that many, even today, were actually veterans of various military capacities.
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« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2012, 08:32:22 pm »
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Basically, we have to make sure everyone serves, because enough isn't enough.

I am not sure what you are getting at, but as I have said before, it would take a hell of lot to get me to vote vote to enact a draft. I despise it with all my being. But in a situation where it is that option or losing the country, we need to be able to choose that option, and pretty damn quick.

It is my opinion that we never should have renacted the draft after WWII. Especially after Korea when the conventional forces were being downsized and Nukes were dominating the military strategy.

Right, but I think you're failing to realize that the draft will never need to be a last ditch effort because we will always have plenty of volunteers willing to serve.

We didn't in 1863. Can you guarrantee that we will in 2063? or 2163?
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« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2012, 08:34:35 pm »
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Those were volunteers.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #120 on: February 23, 2012, 08:48:07 pm »
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Those were volunteers.

Obviously, if you drafted everyone in congress, you wouldn't be able to wage the war. The point is you are making this discrimination arguement because government servants are exempted from the draft, and are thus "cowards who are hiding behind a shield of slaves". That is quite a ridiculous arguement to make. If they are essentiall personel, that kind of makes sense, when you think about it. Someone has to appropriate the funds, lest you be railing against executive despotism. If you are concerned that too many in congress are cowards, then elect an all veteran congress and President like clarence wants.
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« Reply #121 on: February 23, 2012, 08:49:31 pm »
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Does Atlasia draft women? Can education not be continued after a war? Your amendment seems to allow higher education as an evasion tactic.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #122 on: February 23, 2012, 08:53:32 pm »
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everyone in congress [...] essential personnel

lol good one
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« Reply #123 on: February 23, 2012, 09:44:51 pm »
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everyone in congress [...] essential personnel

lol good one

Can anyone else appropriate money?

Does Atlasia draft women? Can education not be continued after a war? Your amendment seems to allow higher education as an evasion tactic.

If it were removed, would that have changed how you voted while Senator, or would it have changed the votes of any of the other nays?
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« Reply #124 on: February 23, 2012, 09:47:58 pm »
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Of course not, as slavery would still be involved and discrimination would still be involved. Simply put, adding more discrimination into this nasty mixture of discrimination and slavery cannot be construed as an improvement.

I think you are missing the point. We want the people to be able to vote on whether or not they think we should allow this depressing and archaic form of enslavement, and we want you to do what you can to give them that opportunity. And if they do not get that opportunity, the cowardice of some to take a positive stand on a moral issue will be to blame. I would hate to see that happen.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 09:50:21 pm by Governor Napoleon »Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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