Anti-Conscription Amendment [Rejected]

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I oppose conscription 100%. Period.

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NAY

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Aye

So, let me get this straight, if the nation was being invaded, you would still oppose using to conscription to defend it? If that were to actually happen somehow, it doesn't look like our government would last too long...

If no one wants to defend the nation, then we deserve to get beat.

^^^^^ yesyesyes this.

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Senators, think for a moment about what exactly is currently being debated...a bill that forces citizens into military service. That's outrageous. There is no excuse for the Federal Government to force any citizen to do anything, it's immoral. The Government is supposed to protect us, not the other way around. Therefore, unless we strongly reconsider what we are doing, I propose the following amendment:

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Of course I don't intend for this amendment to be voted on or actually taken seriously, but think about it. If we are going to force our own citizens into military service, our asses are first.

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You first.

Absurd.  I'm not advocating a Draft; I'm saying it shouldn't be abolished.  The idea that a government official can't hold this position without joining themselves is specious reasoning.

Absolutely not. If we are to strip liberty, we ought to be the first to be stripped.

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I withdraw my amendment on the grounds that I was never being serious.

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Nay.

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@20RP12
In this thread you seem to treat gov't in a particular way. The gov't is a reflection of us, and it exists because we let it by our choice. Its primary purpose is to protect its people. It's like Thomas Paine said in Common Sense, "For were the impulse of conscience clear, uniform and irresistably obeyed, man would need no other law-giver. That not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property for the protection of the rest...".

Granted, we are discussing more then just surrendering up property, but it is the same general idea. If we have a draft in place, it is to protect the homeland not the government. And the sacrifice is for the sake of the nation and its people.

My assumption is that you're referring to my non-serious amendment about making Government officials serve first.

I see your point when you say "protecting the homeland, not the Government," but it's my view is that if the Government is too require its citizens to do something, that they should be subject to the same requirements that the citizens are subject to, ie conscription, if passed. It's ludicrous to say that we are to be subject from the requirements because we are the Government. I believe the draft is inherently evil and a terrible idea. Voluntary military service is the only military service I support.

So, essentially, while the amendment was a joke (or non-serious) it's the sentiment that was to be taken seriously. We are not above The People. If anything, we are below the people.

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Should sitting members of congress be allowed to serve in the military? They were until 1942 when FDR put a stop to it.

It's almost like saying "okay, we're going to make you buy a certain type of car, one that you may or may not like...but we, the Government officials that are forcing you to buy this car, are going to reserve the right to buy whatever car we please." It's hypocrisy. My point is, military service should be voluntary, period. I oppose war in really every situation, but if we're going to go to war, I guarantee you that there are plenty of Atlasians willing to fight for us. It's completely illogical to think that coercing our citizens into active military service is wrong. If you don't want to serve in the military voluntarily because you fear for your life, what makes you think forcing someone to serve will make them change their mind? We'll see service evasion and then what? We'll sentence our citizens to prison time because they evaded military service? That's ridiculous. If we're going to mandate something, we the Government should be as subject to said mandates as the citizens of Atlasia. Any other argument is total bs and I refuse to accept it. I will not budge on this.

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Damn, 20RP12, I wasn't trying to corrupt you with the forbidden fruit, I was merely asking if in the hypothetic situation arouse that we are at war, should members of congress be allowed to serve while being a sitting member?

And my answer was yes. Granted, it was pro-longed and delayed, but nonetheless I answered.

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Nay.

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Ugh more amendments.

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Nay.

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Are they any statistics suggesting that in a time of war, not enough Atlasians would be willing to fight in said war? Honest question.

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Basically, we have to make sure everyone serves, because enough isn't enough.

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Basically, we have to make sure everyone serves, because enough isn't enough.

I am not sure what you are getting at, but as I have said before, it would take a hell of lot to get me to vote vote to enact a draft. I despise it with all my being. But in a situation where it is that option or losing the country, we need to be able to choose that option, and pretty damn quick.

It is my opinion that we never should have renacted the draft after WWII. Especially after Korea when the conventional forces were being downsized and Nukes were dominating the military strategy.

Right, but I think you're failing to realize that the draft will never need to be a last ditch effort because we will always have plenty of volunteers willing to serve.

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everyone in congress [...] essential personnel

lol good one

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everyone in congress [...] essential personnel

lol good one

Can anyone else appropriate money?

I don't think Congress itself can properly appropriate money....

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Motion to move to a final vote because god forbid we actually vote on the bill after nearly a month of debate.

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But do you understand my point, Yankee? Why is it that we can sit here and legislate and say "you all have to serve in the military cuz we say so, but we don't have to." Why is that fair? It isn't. If this bill passes and we are invaded, I will resign from whatever office I hold and will be the first to sign up for military service.

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I just want to say that I disagree with the opinion that a military draft is slavery.  While I see the parallels that are being drawn, they do not stand in my view.  Military service in time of war is, in my opinion, exactly that, service that may be owed to one's country.  In many it is like taxes, which no one really likes paying, but is something we have to do. 

Comparing paying taxes and being conscripted into military service is kind of an invalid comparison. I don't necessarily believe taxes should exist, but I agree that they are a necessary evil. Conscription, however, is never justified in my opinion. It's like comparing playing Call Of Duty and actually serving in war. The two are not the same. I'll pay my taxes to the state, but I do not owe my life to the state. No way, no how.

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NAY!!!!!!

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I encourage every Senator that believes in individual liberty to vote nay.

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I just can't support any legislation that would continue to allow the government to force its citizens into slavery.  If we were to support gutted versions of what we are ultimately pushing for, then we'd be compromising on our values and defeating our ultimate goal.  Whether there's enough support for the amendment or not, we are simply making a statement.

This.

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This Amendment has failed.