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IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
John Dibble
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2012, 12:47:36 pm »
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Dang, Dibble, I waited nearly a week to open this thread because I thought the response to my comment would require my having to write a long post, and I wanted to make sure I had the time to do it properly.  But you proved me wrong – there was no need for me to wait, for you step-sided, once again, my whole point.

You asked a loaded question, so of course I sidestepped your point.

Quote
You simply refuse to turn on the lights to examine the miracle staring you in the face (most likely due to the fact you can’t explain it away), and instead attempt to discount miracles you don’t readily have available to examine.

I see no miracle staring me in the face. I instead see you making claims that can't be distinguished from delusions.

Quote
Now, you obviously can’t examine my claim of God speaking to me and giving me a commission, but you can examine some of the provisions he gave me and whether or not I was able to accomplish my claimed commission through the use of those provisions.

So why not examine it?

Your beliefs changed and so your actions changed accordingly. That is not miraculous since beliefs inform actions, regardless of whether or not those beliefs are based on the supernatural. Only whether or not God actually talked to you to change those beliefs is related to the subjects of miracles, and as you outright admit here that claim can't be examined.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2012, 03:21:38 pm »
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again, you're ignoring the provisions.  but, that's ok, I'm not really interested in going through it.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2012, 04:37:08 pm »
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again, you're ignoring the provisions.  but, that's ok, I'm not really interested in going through it.

And again, the provisions are irrelevant if you aren't actually talking with God.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2012, 02:05:25 pm »
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again, you're ignoring the provisions.  but, that's ok, I'm not really interested in going through it.

And again, the provisions are irrelevant if you aren't actually talking with God.

you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.   you're basically saying, "you miraculous healing is irrelevant if you weren't actually healed by God."  On one hand you're asking for proof God has done something miraculous, then on the other, you say, "doesn't matter what happen if God didn't actually do it."

If not from God, then how do you explain the provisions and how they align with the supposedly fake commission and testimony.
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2012, 02:29:33 pm »
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again, you're ignoring the provisions.  but, that's ok, I'm not really interested in going through it.

And again, the provisions are irrelevant if you aren't actually talking with God.

you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.   you're basically saying, "you miraculous healing is irrelevant if you weren't actually healed by God."  On one hand you're asking for proof God has done something miraculous, then on the other, you say, "doesn't matter what happen if God didn't actually do it."

No, I'm saying that I don't buy that your healing was miraculous. If you can't demonstrate something is actually a miracle, then a question about how impressive a particular miracle is really isn't particularly interesting.

Quote
If not from God, then how do you explain the provisions and how they align with the supposedly fake commission and testimony.

Since I don't have a time machine and a remote brain scanner to see exactly what was going on in your head at the time I can't say anything for certain. However, given at the time you were already studying the Bible I don't particularly find it odd that if you had a religious experience which meshes with the subject matter you were studying. As I've told you before people in other religions have had experiences that match their religions. I find it far more plausible that you and other such people who have experiences such as this entered into some brain state, euphoric or otherwise, that you had not experience with before and used a religious belief to explain it.

It's not all that different from people who claim to have been abducted by UFOs. Quite often their testimony matches that of various media, but do you take them seriously just because they make a claim that matches up with something else that isn't exactly a reliable source of information? No, of course you wouldn't, so why should I do so with your testimony?
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jmfcst
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« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2012, 12:22:30 pm »
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Since I don't have a time machine and a remote brain scanner to see exactly what was going on in your head at the time I can't say anything for certain. However, given at the time you were already studying the Bible I don't particularly find it odd that if you had a religious experience which meshes with the subject matter you were studying.

I am not talking about testing my conversion experience after read just 3 chapters of Galatians, which you can’t test directly.  Rather I am talking about testing the provision God gave me during that conversion experience.

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It's not all that different from people who claim to have been abducted by UFOs. Quite often their testimony matches that of various media, but do you take them seriously just because they make a claim that matches up with something else that isn't exactly a reliable source of information? No, of course you wouldn't, so why should I do so with your testimony?

This is a perfect example.  If this abducted person claimed to have been given new skills (in an area he was neither acquainted with nor trained in) that fit a specific commission he was given while abducted…and successfully completed that mission, and had demonstrated his skills in your presence time and time again over a period of years…it should give you more than a moments pause.

So it is in my case – you have much more than a life changing experience on your hands, and you even have more than observable results of a completed commission.  You have the demonstrable skill (provision).
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2012, 01:43:35 pm »
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Since I don't have a time machine and a remote brain scanner to see exactly what was going on in your head at the time I can't say anything for certain. However, given at the time you were already studying the Bible I don't particularly find it odd that if you had a religious experience which meshes with the subject matter you were studying.

I am not talking about testing my conversion experience after read just 3 chapters of Galatians, which you can’t test directly.  Rather I am talking about testing the provision God gave me during that conversion experience.

---

It's not all that different from people who claim to have been abducted by UFOs. Quite often their testimony matches that of various media, but do you take them seriously just because they make a claim that matches up with something else that isn't exactly a reliable source of information? No, of course you wouldn't, so why should I do so with your testimony?

This is a perfect example.  If this abducted person claimed to have been given new skills (in an area he was neither acquainted with nor trained in) that fit a specific commission he was given while abducted…and successfully completed that mission, and had demonstrated his skills in your presence time and time again over a period of years…it should give you more than a moments pause.

So it is in my case – you have much more than a life changing experience on your hands, and you even have more than observable results of a completed commission.  You have the demonstrable skill (provision).

Ok, for the sake of refreshing everyone's memory and for the sake of me not arguing with a strawman if you really want to continue this can you give the specifics of your provision - exactly what skills have you been granted? Be succinct if possible, you don't need to go over the whole story again.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2012, 03:06:27 pm »
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Ok, for the sake of refreshing everyone's memory and for the sake of me not arguing with a strawman if you really want to continue this can you give the specifics of your provision - exactly what skills have you been granted? Be succinct if possible, you don't need to go over the whole story again.

My testimony has God opening my eyes to the meaning of scripture and anointing me with his Spirit and commissioning me to go preach the truth to my friends in a legalistic church…and the provision he gave me was the ability understanding and teach the scripture and to dissect doctrinal error.

Now, if my testimony is simply a figment of my imagination, then why is it that you, a non-believer with no denominational biases, agree with my interpretation, even though I have had no formal training?

So not only are the results of my testimony clearly seen (I was friends with several families in the upper leadership of the World Wide Church of God, and I was summoned before it’s leadership, involved the world headquarters in Pasadena CA, used as an instrument in the breakup the World Wide Church of God, helped bring numerous members of those families to the truth, and ended up marrying one of its members and have had four kids with her)…but the provision God gave me to do all that is clearly visible.

In fact, my provision is so clear to you, that you probably can’t name one other Christian, famous or non-famous, whose interpretation you agree with more than mine.

Well, Dibble, you can't have both ways:  you can't agree with my interpretation of the bible on the one hand and then turn around and blame me for turning you off to Christianity.

Sure I can - I had a different interpretation before that I rather liked, and you convinced me of an intepretation that I like much less, thus turning me off to Christianity. It's a rather simple series of events.
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
John Dibble
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« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2012, 03:22:07 pm »
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Ok, for the sake of refreshing everyone's memory and for the sake of me not arguing with a strawman if you really want to continue this can you give the specifics of your provision - exactly what skills have you been granted? Be succinct if possible, you don't need to go over the whole story again.

My testimony has God opening my eyes to the meaning of scripture and anointing me with his Spirit and commissioning me to go preach the truth to my friends in a legalistic church…and the provision he gave me was the ability understanding and teach the scripture and to dissect doctrinal error.

Now, if my testimony is simply a figment of my imagination, then why is it that you, a non-believer with no denominational biases, agree with my interpretation, even though I have had no formal training?

Because you were much more informed of the actual contents of the book at the time, having read them many times after your experience, and once I was informed of those contents appropriately I have this skill called "reading comprehension" that allows me to interpret the contents. I happened to agree with your interpretation on the matters at hand. That's hardly miraculous.

Also, are you saying you didn't have "reading comprehension" in your skill set before your experience?

Quote
So not only are the results of my testimony clearly seen (I was friends with several families in the upper leadership of the World Wide Church of God, and I was summoned before it’s leadership, involved the world headquarters in Pasadena CA, used as an instrument in the breakup the World Wide Church of God, helped bring numerous members of those families to the truth, and ended up marrying one of its members and have had four kids with her)…but the provision God gave me to do all that is clearly visible.

Churches collapse and schism. People convert to and from different denominations. This happens in pretty much every religion. It's not evidence for a miracle.

Quote
In fact, my provision is so clear to you, that you probably can’t name one other Christian, famous or non-famous, whose interpretation you agree with more than mine.

You seem to have forgotten I have still argued against some of your interpretations on some things in the Bible - slavery for instance. The particular agreement in interpretation you reference is largely in regards to what is considered a sin in the Bible, like homosexuality.

EDIT - also who goes to hell and who doesn't. But honestly, by making me have these interpretations all you did was convince me of was that your god was more monstrous that I had previously imagined. Why are you proud of that?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 04:26:29 pm by IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble »Logged

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jmfcst
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« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2012, 04:35:42 pm »
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Now, if my testimony is simply a figment of my imagination, then why is it that you, a non-believer with no denominational biases, agree with my interpretation, even though I have had no formal training?

Because you were much more informed of the actual contents of the book at the time, having read them many times after your experience, and once I was informed of those contents appropriately I have this skill called "reading comprehension" that allows me to interpret the contents. I happened to agree with your interpretation on the matters at hand. That's hardly miraculous.

1)   my conversion experience included many doctrinal details (like the fire in my bones) that I was so unaware of at the time, I thought I was the only one on earth who had experienced such a thing.
2)   And I immediately started to be able to digest the “meat” scripture, so it wasn’t a skill I “developed” by reading it many times.  And this is provable in the fact that even though I am untrained, I was able in my own spare time to interpret it better than anyone you’ve read or listened to.  If it simply came through study, then why are you in agreement with me and not those who have had more hours of study?

---

Also, are you saying you didn't have "reading comprehension" in your skill set before your experience?

No, I couldn’t understand the bible before that night.  I had attempted to read sections of it before, but reading it back then was like was like being lost in a vast ocean.  It was only that night that everything just began to click and I could spiritually understand what was written.

So, if my “reading compression” in regard to the bible was not a gift from God, then why did you need me to bring you into a better interpretation?!

Well, Dibble, you can't have both ways:  you can't agree with my interpretation of the bible on the one hand and then turn around and blame me for turning you off to Christianity.

Sure I can – I had a different interpretation before that I rather liked, and you convinced me of an intepretation that I like much less, thus turning me off to Christianity. It's a rather simple series of events.



---

Quote
So not only are the results of my testimony clearly seen (I was friends with several families in the upper leadership of the World Wide Church of God, and I was summoned before it’s leadership, involved the world headquarters in Pasadena CA, used as an instrument in the breakup the World Wide Church of God, helped bring numerous members of those families to the truth, and ended up marrying one of its members and have had four kids with her)…but the provision God gave me to do all that is clearly visible.

Churches collapse and schism. People convert to and from different denominations. This happens in pretty much every religion. It's not evidence for a miracle.

So, it’s just a freak coincidence that I was in exactly the right place (having spent dozens of nights at the homes of several of the most important members of its leadership) at exactly the right time (’92-‘95) and had exactly the right skill (ability to correctly layout NT theology as it related to that church) – a skill I didn’t have before my conversion?

That’s a pretty huge coincidence – but it doesn’t come close to the evidence of my God-given provision.

---



Quote
In fact, my provision is so clear to you, that you probably can’t name one other Christian, famous or non-famous, whose interpretation you agree with more than mine.

You seem to have forgotten I have still argued against some of your interpretations on some things in the Bible - slavery for instance. The particular agreement in interpretation you reference is largely in regards to what is considered a sin in the Bible, like homosexuality.

Yes, I know you ignore the book of Philemon and other passages in an attempt to claim Christianity promotes slavery…but name a single Christian, whose OVERALL interpretation (even when you’re being a obvious hack as in the case of slavery) you are more in agreement with?

Let me be very clear:  I am neither claiming perfect interpretation nor complete knowledge of scripture.  But I am claiming a true calling with true provisions.  Provisions sufficient enough to successfully complete my commission, and sufficient enough to run circles around the vast majority of those with formal training.  And not because I am more intelligent than them, but because me calling is REAL.  Nor did I seek, desire, of choose my calling.  In fact, I had no knowledge of what it meant to be called by God.

And not only is my provision evident to you, but the details of my testimony (the unstructured setting of my apartment, receiving the Spirit after understand but a brief message, the fire in my bones, God speaking to me and revealing to me that the events of my life that led me to have contact with the World Wide Church of God were all planned out by God years before that night, receiving a commission from God, being given provisional gifts from God to accomplish the commission that were not based on man’s strength, being led by God throughout my mission, succeeding in my mission, having my life defined by that success) are in complete agreement with the bible and mesh with many biblical examples of people being called into God’s service.

And you are aware of this and see a parallel between the attributes of my calling and those biblical examples, whether it be Moses’ calling, or Paul’s calling (not that I am equating myself to them).  So, not only does my provision meet your interpretational agreement, but the details of my calling are reflected in many biblical examples.

So, not only does my testimony and commission agree with scripture, but the provision given to me is in agreement with the bible, and is, overall, the best interpretation of the bible you’ve ever heard  -an interpretation you didn’t even share until I explained it to you.

So, my provision not only is able to preach the Gospel to believers, it also presents an overall interpretation that even non-believers like yourself agree is understandable and the best undistorted version of NT theology.

2Cor 4:1 Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
IDS Judicial Overlord John Dibble
John Dibble
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Japan


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« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2012, 05:19:07 pm »
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1)   my conversion experience included many doctrinal details (like the fire in my bones) that I was so unaware of at the time, I thought I was the only one on earth who had experienced such a thing.

Various humans have reported "out of body" experiences and attribute it to all kinds of things, and those who later experience them often attribute it to whatever the first similar thing they read says it is. Humans have common strange experiences like that. Why should I treat your "fire in the bones" thing any differently? How do you know that the biblical author who wrote about that didn't just have similar experiences and falsely attributed it to the biblical god, and that upon reading about it you just latched onto the explanation yourself?

Quote
2)   And I immediately started to be able to digest the “meat” scripture, so it wasn’t a skill I “developed” by reading it many times. And this is provable in the fact that even though I am untrained, I was able in my own spare time to interpret it better than anyone you’ve read or listened to.  If it simply came through study, then why are you in agreement with me and not those who have had more hours of study?

By the time you and I came into contact you'd read the Bible multiple times and had years of practice at evangelizing. To claim otherwise is intellectually dishonest. And as I stated before, you simply informed me of passages in the Bible that I didn't already know. New information that contradicts an interpretation demands old information be reinterpreted in a new light - it's that way for pretty much anything.

Quote
Also, are you saying you didn't have "reading comprehension" in your skill set before your experience?

No, I couldn’t understand the bible before that night.  I had attempted to read sections of it before, but reading it back then was like was like being lost in a vast ocean.  It was only that night that everything just began to click and I could spiritually understand what was written.

Couldn't, or didn't care to put in the effort? Didn't you only start seriously reading the Bible in the first place so you could get married to the woman you live? Lack of interest in a subject often makes it hard to get into it, especially if the subject is a large book. I certainly didn't care about interpreting the Bible before I started caring about how religion affects the world, so I just went along with the feel good interpretation that my peers did.

Quote
So, if my “reading compression” in regard to the bible was not a gift from God, then why did you need me to bring you into a better interpretation?!

As stated, you simply gave me new information on the Bible's contents to process. Had I actually read those parts beforehand I would likely have already had a different interpretation.

Quote
So, it’s just a freak coincidence that I was in exactly the right place (having spent dozens of nights at the homes of several of the most important members of its leadership) at exactly the right time (’92-‘95) and had exactly the right skill (ability to correctly layout NT theology as it related to that church) – a skill I didn’t have before my conversion?

Why not? Improbable things happen to people all the time. Put together, how many improbable events does it take for someone to be put in a position where they might become a world leader, or a famous artist, or any number of things? Even as improbable as it is that any one person might get maneuvered into such a position, the sheer number of people in the world dictates that it's going to happen to some of us.
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