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Author Topic: Großdeutsche Lösung  (Read 624 times)
Jerseyrules
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« on: October 06, 2012, 12:20:56 am »
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Alright guys, I've been mulling something over for a while.  What if after the Revolutions of 1848, Emperor Franz Josef reaches out to Otto Von Bismarck?  Franz Joseph declares his intentions for a United Germany, including Austria, as does Von Bismarck.  Both work for German Unity, and Franz Josef promises to appoint Von Bismarck chancellor of a unified Germany under Austrian hedgemony.  When would unification be able to occur, assuming Austria takes the lead in the war against Denmark, etc. And wins the Prussian-Austrian and German-French Wars?  Would this new union be stable, and would it be as federalized as otl Germany?  How would other nations react!

Finally, I was wondering why Lichtenstein was excluded from Germany and if it would be possible to have them join this Greater German state, and whether this would be better than otl Germany and Austria in the long run.
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Jerseyrules
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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2012, 08:37:04 pm »
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Anything would be very useful.  If you want you can shoot me a pm or just post here.

Thanks guys Wink
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 07:56:21 am »
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I think one thing you would have in that union is increased nationalism on the part of the Czechs, Magyars etc. Instead of being part of a multicultural empire, they would be subject peoples in a German empire.

Internationally, I think France & Russia would almost have to ally as such a large, powerful nation would cause anyone bordering it to become fearful.
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Jerseyrules
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2012, 02:32:23 pm »
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I think one thing you would have in that union is increased nationalism on the part of the Czechs, Magyars etc. Instead of being part of a multicultural empire, they would be subject peoples in a German empire.

Internationally, I think France & Russia would almost have to ally as such a large, powerful nation would cause anyone bordering it to become fearful.

What if all these minorities are given their own parliament and more lax censorship?  And what of Spain and Scandanavia?  Italy?  What if instead of allying with the Ottomans, a unified Persia (more powerful and with a much larger Zoroastrian population than otl, which eventually becomes the majority again under a Zoroastrian Shah), allies with this Greater Germany, and wipes out the Ottomans before World War I with German support, in the name of "regaining the glory of the mighty former Persian Empires"?  What if America allies with this Greater Germany and restored Persian Empire?

Sorry for all the questions, but as you can see I have some very specific plans in mind Wink
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 02:51:41 pm »
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What DC Al Fine said.

Since the Habsburgs would most likely be unwilling to cut the non-German-speaking parts of their empire loose, we're talking about creating a country that includes the territory of not only present-day Germany and Austria, but also the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, as well huge chunks of Poland and Romania. For all intents and purposes, it wouldn't be a German Empire, but a "German-Hungarian Empire".

Very impractical to hold together. Expect independence movements which are almost impossible to contain. Maybe the whole thing would even break apart without a First World War.

All of this is of course one of the main reasons (apart from the Austro-Prussian rivalry) why a Großdeutsche Lösung never came to be.
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Jerseyrules
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2012, 03:33:04 pm »
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What DC Al Fine said.

Since the Habsburgs would most likely be unwilling to cut the non-German-speaking parts of their empire loose, we're talking about creating a country that includes the territory of not only present-day Germany and Austria, but also the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, as well huge chunks of Poland and Romania. For all intents and purposes, it wouldn't be a German Empire, but a "German-Hungarian Empire".

Very impractical to hold together. Expect independence movements which are almost impossible to contain. Maybe the whole thing would even break apart without a First World War.

All of this is of course one of the main reasons (apart from the Austro-Prussian rivalry) why a Großdeutsche Lösung never came to be.

But let's say it's a more federal version of the Holy Roman Empire - each state (including Slovenia, Hungary, Prussia, etc) is given its own parliament.  However, the emperor is not elected, but must be a Habsburg.  Each state is given independence on religious matters, and some economic matters.  Kinda like the United States - except instead of governors it's princes/kings.  Each state can have its own taxes, etc but there can't be tariffs between the various states, etc.  And if one state is attacked all must defend in unison.  How would that work out?

Finally, let's say racial tensions aren't an issue.  Is it still inevitable that this empire collapses?

And slightly off-topic, but was Wilhelm I a better leader than his grandson?  What was the difference between himself and Wilhelm II?  Is it possible to compare them to Reza Pahlavi and Mohammad Reza respectively; the latter is not as prepared for the throne as the former was, not a good enough politician, etc?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 03:36:01 pm by Jerseyrules »Logged

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Endorsements:
President: Hillary Clinton
Governor: Brown (CA), Corbett (PA), Scott (FL)
House: Emken (CA)
Other: Rob McCoy (CA Assembly)

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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2012, 04:46:47 pm »
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Eh. In abstract, the proposal is ok, but it seems quite unrealistic. These were some of the most conservative monarchies in Europe. I just don't see them suddenly deciding to adopt the model used by American liberals. Plus you still have all the issues involved with minorities in different states.

As for racial tensions not existing, you're venturing into ASB territory. There's very few examples of racial tensions not existing anywhere there is multiple ethnicities. That said, the timeline seems  cool, so if you don't care about realism, have some fun with it.
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Jerseyrules
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2012, 05:51:36 pm »
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What about a POD going back to the late 1700s?  What were the big issues with minorities in Austria and how were they aggravated?  How could they be alleviated?

Also, who was more progressive, Wilhelm or Franz Josef?
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Drink Too Much:
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An Empire of Stars and Stripes:

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Quote
FOOL!  I AM Cathcon!

Endorsements:
President: Hillary Clinton
Governor: Brown (CA), Corbett (PA), Scott (FL)
House: Emken (CA)
Other: Rob McCoy (CA Assembly)

---------------------------------------

Libertarian Internationalist Monarchist
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