Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 03, 2016, 07:04:03 pm
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Please delete your old personal messages.

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Discussion
| |-+  Religion & Philosophy (Moderator: Gustaf)
| | |-+  What's your eucharistic theology?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Print
Poll
Question: For either Christians or people who while not Christians have strong feelings about Christian doctrine.
Transubstantiation   -6 (33.3%)
Trans-elementation/re-ordination/divine mystery (Ortho eucharistic theology, in short)   -1 (5.6%)
Consubstantiation   -0 (0%)
Sacramental union   -2 (11.1%)
Pneumatic presence   -2 (11.1%)
Memorialism   -7 (38.9%)
Show Pie Chart
Total Voters: 18

Author Topic: What's your eucharistic theology?  (Read 1105 times)
whyCarly?
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15783


View Profile
« on: February 06, 2012, 02:47:15 pm »
Ignore

For me, at least, sacramental union seems to make the most sense, though my opinions in the matters that make it different to consubstantiation are not particularly strong.
Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18256
United States


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 02:50:40 pm »
Ignore

I'll take "Webster's" for $200, Nathan.
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Justice TJ
TJ in Cleve
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 6408
United States


Political Matrix
E: -0.26, S: 6.96


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 03:00:05 pm »
Ignore

Transubstantiation of course. Though I'm not sure there's actually any difference between that and the Orthodox one. The word the Orthodox use is often translated as "transubstantiation" even. I suppose someone who's Eastern Orthodox would need to explain the difference to me.
Logged

Anti-Nihilism regardless of whether it hides behind a donkey, an elephant, a hammer and sickle, a Tea Party flag, or a clown from New York.


whyCarly?
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15783


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 03:07:10 pm »
Ignore

I'm sorry, you're right, jmfcst. I should have defined these terms.

Transubstantiation is the Catholic theology. The bread and wine literally become the Body and Blood. The remnants of their original physical form are, essentially, held over from the bread and wine and become the physical form of the Body and Blood. So the Body and Blood take the physical form of the bread and wine, but it is not in any sense blood and wine any more.

The second option is the Eastern Orthodox theology, which is similar to the Catholic theology and uses several different terms. TJ, I put this option in for anybody who might hold with this concept but feel more comfortable with Orthodox than Catholic language for whatever reason. We probably don't have many (or even any) of such people on the Forum, but I wanted to be completist about this. The Orthodox discuss it in markedly different terms, even when the language differences are taken into account.

Consubstantiation was originally a Lollard idea in the late Middle Ages and is believed in by some Anglicans and other 'mainline' Protestants. The Body and Blood exist alongside the physical forms of bread and wine.

Sacramental union is the theology of most Lutherans and many other mainline Protestants, including many Anglicans. It's substantially the same as consubstantiation but doesn't physically 'limit' the presence of the Body and Blood to the bread and wine, instead casting them as a general spiritual pall (this is the part that I don't have particularly strong feelings about).

Pneumatic presence is a Calvinist idea and hinges upon the idea that Jesus being 'seated at the right hand of the Father' means that His literal, physical Body and Blood are not present but that a spiritual essence of them, something like a Platonic Form, is.

Memorialism is a Baptist/charismatic/Evangelical/historically Dissenter theology that essentially has the Eucharist as a rite done in memory of Jesus' Body and Blood rather than including them in any real sense.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 07:11:39 pm by Nathan »Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18256
United States


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 03:12:33 pm »
Ignore

Memorialism

if it wasn't the literal body and blood at the last supper, it surely wasn't after the last supper
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
whyCarly?
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15783


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 03:18:27 pm »
Ignore

Memorialism

if it wasn't the literal body and blood at the last supper, it surely wasn't after the last supper

Good point, and part of why I adhere to a consubstantiationist/sacramental union theology rather than a transubstantiational one.
Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

Insula Dei
belgiansocialist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4368
Belgium


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 03:25:48 pm »
Ignore



Transubstantiation is the Catholic theology. The bread and wine literally become the Body and Blood. The remnants of their original physical form are illusory. (If I'm describing this at all inaccurately I'm sure TJ or belgiansocialist or somebody can correct me.)


Now, I'm no theologician, but I believe the physical properties of the bread and wine after the consecration (if that's the correct term in English) aren't illusory, they just belong to another substance now. That is to say: where the qualities of whiteness/rondness/... before consecration belonged to the bread and wine, they now belong to the body and blood of christ. Very Aristotelic obviously.
Logged
White Light
BRTD
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 76481
France


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 03:35:50 pm »
Ignore

Memorialism. Always felt this way despite my Lutheranism.
Logged


Quote from: someone on AAD
Option 3: he flipped his vote when he realized that the female preacher with the full sleeve tattoos who he fantasizes about domming him was a Sanders supporter Tongue  Hey, whatever gets him closer to those feet I guess.
whyCarly?
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15783


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 07:10:46 pm »
Ignore



Transubstantiation is the Catholic theology. The bread and wine literally become the Body and Blood. The remnants of their original physical form are illusory. (If I'm describing this at all inaccurately I'm sure TJ or belgiansocialist or somebody can correct me.)


Now, I'm no theologician, but I believe the physical properties of the bread and wine after the consecration (if that's the correct term in English) aren't illusory, they just belong to another substance now. That is to say: where the qualities of whiteness/rondness/... before consecration belonged to the bread and wine, they now belong to the body and blood of christ. Very Aristotelic obviously.

Thank you! I'll correct the post.
Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

realisticidealist
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 9135
Vatican City State


Political Matrix
E: -0.39, S: 4.17


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 07:55:59 pm »
Ignore

Transubstantiation.
Logged
Is Totally Not Feeblepizza.
Crackers
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 289
United States


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 08:35:58 pm »
Ignore

Memorialism, of course.
Logged

lawlz
White Light
BRTD
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 76481
France


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 01:12:22 am »
Ignore

Part of my old anti-Catholicism was that I was always bothered greatly by transubstantiation, offended might even qualify, based on two things:

1-There's nothing Biblical about it, unless you inexplicably insist on a completely literal reading of a metaphor that even the standard Biblical literalists (like jmfcst) don't and...
2-The idea that it can only happen if someone who was "properly" ordained (oh and they have to be male too) says some Latin words over the elements. Really that strikes me as incredibly contrived and reminiscent of this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave

What I find pretty odd is that the people insisting on things like Young Earth Creationism and speaking in tongues are also more reasonable and logical here with the memorialism.
Logged


Quote from: someone on AAD
Option 3: he flipped his vote when he realized that the female preacher with the full sleeve tattoos who he fantasizes about domming him was a Sanders supporter Tongue  Hey, whatever gets him closer to those feet I guess.
whyCarly?
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15783


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 01:38:02 am »
Ignore

I'm curious as to who voted for the Orthodox understanding.
Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

useful idiot
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3724


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 03:03:46 am »
Ignore

"Pneumatic Presence"

Communion certainly acts as a means of grace to those who partake penitently, not because of anything in the bread and wine per say, but rather through Christ using the bread and wine to spiritually connect with the Church. The blessing and presence of Christ are in the partaking of the bread and wine, not so much in the bread and wine themselves. I think the Westminster Confession gets it right....
Logged
ZuWo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4637
Switzerland


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 04:37:49 pm »
Ignore

Memorialism
Logged
AverroŽs
AverroŽs Nix
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8453


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 06:21:42 pm »
Ignore

I wonder: For what fraction of those who believe in memorialism does communion typicaly consist of grapefruit juice and graham crackers?
Logged

White Light
BRTD
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 76481
France


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 11:12:51 pm »
Ignore

I wonder: For what fraction of those who believe in memorialism does communion typicaly consist of grapefruit juice and graham crackers?

My church uses wine and crushed saltines.
Logged


Quote from: someone on AAD
Option 3: he flipped his vote when he realized that the female preacher with the full sleeve tattoos who he fantasizes about domming him was a Sanders supporter Tongue  Hey, whatever gets him closer to those feet I guess.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 18256
United States


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 03:07:27 pm »
Ignore

My church uses wine and crushed saltines.

they don't even use unleavened wafers?  figures
Logged

Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
whyCarly?
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15783


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 03:10:30 pm »
Ignore

I wonder: For what fraction of those who believe in memorialism does communion typicaly consist of grapefruit juice and graham crackers?

My church uses wine and crushed saltines.

That's ghetto. You could at least spring for pita or something.
Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

White Light
BRTD
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 76481
France


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 10:44:25 pm »
Ignore

They started as a house church so it might be sort of a "tradition" thing from back then.
Logged


Quote from: someone on AAD
Option 3: he flipped his vote when he realized that the female preacher with the full sleeve tattoos who he fantasizes about domming him was a Sanders supporter Tongue  Hey, whatever gets him closer to those feet I guess.
whyCarly?
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15783


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 10:48:32 pm »
Ignore

I can't vouch for this as it's anecdotal, but I've heard of very, very, VERY poor churches doing things like using Wonderbread and Zima. That doesn't seem to be the situation that your church is in, but considering the ethos of your church I probably shouldn't be surprised regardless.
Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

Sibboleth
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 60003
United Kingdom


View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 08:11:54 pm »
Ignore

It's purely symbolic, but symbolism has a certain reality of its own. Or something like that.
Logged



"It is the essence of a true democracy that people should be respected individually, not simply collectively. It is also of the essence of a democracy that differences and distinctions are recognised and, where relevant, honoured. A democracy should be above all a thoughtful type of society, in these and other respects."

Richard Hoggart
Sibboleth
Realpolitik
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 60003
United Kingdom


View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 08:16:19 pm »
Ignore

I can't vouch for this as it's anecdotal, but I've heard of very, very, VERY poor churches doing things like using Wonderbread and Zima. That doesn't seem to be the situation that your church is in, but considering the ethos of your church I probably shouldn't be surprised regardless.

Martin Laws (the crazed cultist and implicit demon in the Red Riding quartet) used processed bread and undiluted ribena.
Logged



"It is the essence of a true democracy that people should be respected individually, not simply collectively. It is also of the essence of a democracy that differences and distinctions are recognised and, where relevant, honoured. A democracy should be above all a thoughtful type of society, in these and other respects."

Richard Hoggart
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 17396
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 08:46:29 pm »
Ignore

Memorialism :anglican:

"Do this in 'remembrance' of me" - just little cubes of bread and what tastes like a nice claret....
Logged


Dogma is a comfortable thing, it saves you from thought - Sir Robert Menzies
whyCarly?
Nathan
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15783


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2012, 04:17:03 am »
Ignore

I guess part of the idea of sacramental union is what Al said--that symbolism itself has a reality to it, that can transcend the brute fact of the matter. 'This is my Body and Blood', yet also 'Do this for the remembrance of me'.

My church uses traditional Catholic/Anglican wafers and tawny port, which can be got cheaper and at a higher quality than most wines, at least in my area.
Logged

A shameless agrarian collectivist with no respect for private property or individual rights.

Pages: [1] Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines